18 Apr 2024, 05:23 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
|
Username Protected |
Message |
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:20 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13101 Post Likes: +6970
|
|
I’d like to discuss this more and hear more comments. Not defensive at all.
If there was an accident, where would the report fault the crew?
At what point would others have bailed out and why?
Must assume two experienced pilots operating as crew in the scenario.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:27 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
|
|
Username Protected wrote: Mark got you with the “cocky” comment. Nope, I could not see the runway in the video, nor were the landing lights light up like a Christmas tree to indicate/visualize where the runway was............ from the video it looks like a white out.............that's a divert and grab a coffee and wait, especially in mountain regions. This is KSAW so I don't know weather patterns. Even your camera picture shows very poor runway lighting. I'm a pansy, I would not go in there in those conditions with Bob Hoover in the right or left seat.....
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:28 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
|
|
As you demonstrated, if the aircraft is properly controlled there is no accident. If there was an accident the cause would likely be improper control of the aircraft by the pilots.
The aircraft can handle the conditions. Can the pilots?
_________________ Allen
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:29 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/02/08 Posts: 7234 Post Likes: +5142 Company: Rusnak Auto Group Location: Newport Coast, CA
Aircraft: Baron B55 N7123N
|
|
Username Protected wrote: Challenging approach made to look easy Yup. I've watched this several times and it is way cool. You guys are pros...
_________________ STAND UP FOR YOUR COUNTRY
Sven
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:31 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13101 Post Likes: +6970
|
|
Username Protected wrote: Mark got you with the “cocky” comment. Nope, I could not see the runway in the video, nor were the landing lights light up like a Christmas tree to indicate/visualize where the runway was............ from the video it looks like a white out.............that's a divert and grab a coffee and wait, especially in mountain regions. This is KSAW so I don't know weather patterns. Even your camera picture shows very poor runway lighting. I'm a pansy, I would not go in there in those conditions with Bob Hoover in the right or left seat.....
The lights were all you could see. They are what I used to track the landing, and to find the taxiway.
When would you have bailed?
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:37 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
|
|
Username Protected wrote: If there was an accident, where would the report fault the crew?
The Pueblo CO, fatal was most probably an anomaly but shows that mistakes do happen, especially in poor/icing weather. Quote: At what point would others have bailed out and why?
You had decent vis and then flew into basically a white out......I would have bailed and taking my weenie tail back to the decent vis, landed and assessed what to do next... Quote: Must assume two experienced pilots operating as crew in the scenario. I would assume that you both would have gone elsewhere.
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 03:30 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13101 Post Likes: +6970
|
|
Stages of the flight:
While In VMC at IAF, weather reported 600iirc and 7NM. Tower reported a jet landed earlier with moderate to good braking. 1/8” dry over 1/8” hardpack snow reported. Tower said a squall was moving in but would likely be gone by the time we arrived.
Tower later reported he couldn’t see the runway. “Advise on rollout”
Proceeded with approach
Contacted the Rabbit near minimums, continued
Contacted the runway lights, continued
Maintained descent to landing with runway lights in sight
We had and maintained the required visual cues at all times following the procedure. If the argument is based on personal minima, I get that. Otherwise, I’m wondering at what stage specifically you would have broken off and why?
Anytime you land in fresh snow (no tracks) with 12,000’, you’ll be using that style touchdown (maintain deck angle and shallow descent rate).
Mark got an alternate missed approved which was climb straight ahead to 3,600’. At any time we could have pitched, powered, and cleaned up straight ahead. There was never a reason to in my mind, although I was ready. We checked every box all the way down. An unnecessary missed approach below minimums is not without its own set of risks.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 04:42 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 03/09/13 Posts: 911 Post Likes: +449 Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
Aircraft: CE525,PA31
|
|
Username Protected wrote: I'm a pansy, I would not go in there in those conditions with Bob Hoover in the right or left seat..... Yeah we know that What about Mike C? In all seriousness it’s good to have defined limits. In aviation when it comes to weather it’s often a case of you don’t know what you don’t know. So caution is a great thing. Having a good team and mentor helps expand the knowledge base. I learnt so much from my pilot mentor, it made me a better pilot and allowed me to experience a bunch of senarios I would not have experienced without him. Well done team MH and JJ. Andrew
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 04:45 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13585 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
|
|
Username Protected wrote: Based on what you both tell me(inferred in your posts), that's more than a reason to divert.
I think that the decision to land, whilst perfectly legal, was a poor one.
flame suit on I’d do it again without hesitation. Two pro pilots, working as a team, with all the right queues , in a capable aircraft, at a stupid long runway. What am I missing?
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 06:54 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 06/09/09 Posts: 4573 Post Likes: +3298
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
|
|
Very well executed approach and landing. In the vid weather was reported 400' & 3/4 mile.
*If* Mark or Jesse at some point said "lets try this approach in a way that no one has ever taught-higher/faster/steeper" then we can compare it to the Canadian MU2 crash. I do not see a comparision between the two ops at all.
When the chips were down they made sure to do everything as trained and as flown every other time ie. no improvising.
IMO very smart to stay coupled for this one.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 08:52 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
|
|
Points well taken. The visual cues from video/camera were not enough to make me feel comfortable that you had enough comfortable visibility. Furthermore, if the tower is asking you to tell them when you are landing, then we know that visibility is low. So to reiterate my answer given what I saw in the video/photo, there are/were not enough visual cues for me to note with certainty that I had a runway environment sufficient for ME to land on. I would have gone missed at DA. Username Protected wrote: Stages of the flight:
While In VMC at IAF, weather reported 600iirc and 7NM. Tower reported a jet landed earlier with moderate to good braking. 1/8” dry over 1/8” hardpack snow reported. Tower said a squall was moving in but would likely be gone by the time we arrived.
Tower later reported he couldn’t see the runway. “Advise on rollout”
Proceeded with approach
Contacted the Rabbit near minimums, continued
Contacted the runway lights, continued
Maintained descent to landing with runway lights in sight
We had and maintained the required visual cues at all times following the procedure. If the argument is based on personal minima, I get that. Otherwise, I’m wondering at what stage specifically you would have broken off and why?
Anytime you land in fresh snow (no tracks) with 12,000’, you’ll be using that style touchdown (maintain deck angle and shallow descent rate).
Mark got an alternate missed approved which was climb straight ahead to 3,600’. At any time we could have pitched, powered, and cleaned up straight ahead. There was never a reason to in my mind, although I was ready. We checked every box all the way down. An unnecessary missed approach below minimums is not without its own set of risks.
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 08:53 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
|
|
Username Protected wrote: IMO very smart to stay coupled for this one. Is an auto-pilot coupled approach allowed to minima?
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 18 Jan 2018, 08:57 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13585 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
|
|
Username Protected wrote: The Pueblo CO, fatal was most probably an anomaly but shows that mistakes do happen, especially in poor/icing weather.
Pueblo was a Circuit City owned 560 whose crew ignored the 7 knot increase in Vref whilest in icing conditions and crashed killing 7? Sister ship landed without incident. We had a trace of ice.
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
|
|
Top |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
|
Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us
BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a
forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include
the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner,
Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.
BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.
Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024
|
|
|
|