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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 15:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Top off of 670 gals or 4,556 lbs. capacity is 5008. So actually only 452 lbs aboard. Not 700.

Tanks often hold more than their stated capacity, so it may be possible you did have ~675 lbs as indicated. This can mean you are flying heavier than you think, however.

Quote:
Know your fuel gauges!

Only real way to know is to drain the tanks fully, put in unusable fuel, then check gauge readout while adding in set amounts, say 100 lbs a side, until you get to top off. This gives you a measured actual fuel curve for the gauge reading. You need to have a level parking place and to fill both tanks evenly to avoid attitude induced errors in readout.

Best time to do this is after a weighing when the tanks should already be empty plus unusable fuel. It can be tedious to do, however, as you have to wait a bit of time for the gauge circuits to settle as they have long time constants to limit gauge jitter.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 16:32 
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Tanks can also hold less than stated capacity. Only way to know for sure is empty them and then fill them with a good calibrated truck.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 17:07 
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Joined: 01/31/09
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Location: Northern NJ
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Username Protected wrote:
Landed Saturday in KSAW from KMCD. Mackinac Island. 25 min trip.

700 lbs according to gauges.

Both low fuel lights illuminated on taxi. Intermittently.

Top off of 670 gals or 4,556 lbs. capacity is 5008. So actually only 452 lbs aboard. Not 700.

Know your fuel gauges!


Most CJ's and Mustang you can fill the tanks over the stated capacity by a few hundred pounds. There are tabs indicating where full should be to and they can be filled past the tabs.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 22:45 
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Joined: 04/01/15
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Location: Kcrq
Aircraft: KA F90, Premier 1A
Username Protected wrote:
Landed Saturday in KSAW from KMCD. Mackinac Island. 25 min trip.

700 lbs according to gauges.

Both low fuel lights illuminated on taxi. Intermittently.

Top off of 670 gals or 4,556 lbs. capacity is 5008. So actually only 452 lbs aboard. Not 700.

Know your fuel gauges!



Do you have fuel totalizers? On the Premier they are fed into the FMS and are scary accurate. (I assume Pro Line equipped CJ’s have this feature) I log fuel used on every flight so that I can compare it to the next top off. It’s rarely off by more than 20 lbs. The gages are the only “legal” way to determine fuel quantity but they are not accurate in the descent when you really would like to actually know what you have. Low fuel in a jet is no joke at the fuel burn they have down low.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 23:02 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Landed Saturday in KSAW from KMCD. Mackinac Island. 25 min trip.

700 lbs according to gauges.

Both low fuel lights illuminated on taxi. Intermittently.

Top off of 670 gals or 4,556 lbs. capacity is 5008. So actually only 452 lbs aboard. Not 700.

Know your fuel gauges!



Do you have fuel totalizers? On the Premier they are fed into the FMS and are scary accurate. (I assume Pro Line equipped CJ’s have this feature) I log fuel used on every flight so that I can compare it to the next top off. It’s rarely off by more than 20 lbs. The gages are the only “legal” way to determine fuel quantity but they are not accurate in the descent when you really would like to actually know what you have. Low fuel in a jet is no joke at the fuel burn they have down low.


I do. I will have to track that better. The problem is it is only as good as what the pilot enters.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 23:12 
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Joined: 03/28/17
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Location: N. California
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Username Protected wrote:
Landed Saturday in KSAW from KMCD. Mackinac Island. 25 min trip.

700 lbs according to gauges.

Both low fuel lights illuminated on taxi. Intermittently.

Top off of 670 gals or 4,556 lbs. capacity is 5008. So actually only 452 lbs aboard. Not 700.

Know your fuel gauges!



Do you have fuel totalizers? On the Premier they are fed into the FMS and are scary accurate. (I assume Pro Line equipped CJ’s have this feature) I log fuel used on every flight so that I can compare it to the next top off. It’s rarely off by more than 20 lbs. The gages are the only “legal” way to determine fuel quantity but they are not accurate in the descent when you really would like to actually know what you have. Low fuel in a jet is no joke at the fuel burn they have down low.


"Low fuel in a jet is no joke at the fuel burn they have down low."

Amen. I see a little extra fuel above reserve on landing as "insurance." A helpful technique to use when conditions permit is to have the alternate along your route of flight before your destination. That way if you come up short on fuel, or get weathered out at your destination before getting there, your alternate is closer than your destination. This makes it a little more comfortable when you can't put on much fuel above legal minimums.

A quick way to turn 30 minutes of fuel at cruise altitude into 15 minutes of fuel is to be at 10,000 feet with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 08:51 
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I took the II up to FL400 yesterday. We were approx 13,000lbs. -40dC. We made 320KTAS on 840lbs/hr. After passing the line of storms I was over, we descended to FL370 and made 346KTAS on 960lbs/hr.

I would do it again. It took awhile to get to cruise AOA, but it cleared up our gap on radar, and after 10 minutes we went VMC. Thats nice when working around the big stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 10:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
I took the II up to FL400 yesterday. We were approx 13,000lbs. -40dC. We made 320KTAS on 840lbs/hr. After passing the line of storms I was over, we descended to FL370 and made 346KTAS on 960lbs/hr.

I would do it again. It took awhile to get to cruise AOA, but it cleared up our gap on radar, and after 10 minutes we went VMC. Thats nice when working around the big stuff.


Video or it didn’t happen. I was getting 335 at 430 after we got planed out.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/2JG_VBEeUYQ[/youtube]


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 11:47 
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Interesting. We never took the II that high. Did fly the V at FL430. One must have great patience, be light, and a have cooperative controller to do that. We were never in that position when we would have liked to go that high in the II.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 15:33 
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Location: Akron, Ohio
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Ask for a block from 410 to 430 that will give you the slow climb or wait till you burn it off and climb, usually within a hour and a half doing the step climb we can get her up to 430.

This trip was from a few weeks ago, we were over Savannah, GA from West Palm, about 12,000 lbs burning, 780 lbs at mach .6

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 18:20 
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Joined: 08/24/13
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Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
Username Protected wrote:
Ask for a block from 410 to 430 that will give you the slow climb or wait till you burn it off and climb, usually within a hour and a half doing the step climb we can get her up to 430.

This trip was from a few weeks ago, we were over Savannah, GA from West Palm, about 12,000 lbs burning, 780 lbs at mach .6

Gary


Your USB and lighter socket breakers are in the wrong place......


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 19:48 
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Thanks Terry

That was a quickie fix as we moved the annunicater panel up. She is going in for new panel next month and we will moving them.

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 20:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
Thanks Terry

That was a quickie fix as we moved the annunicater panel up. She is going in for new panel next month and we will moving them.

Gary


Good to hear, it's actually a safety issue unless the wiring has an upstream breaker appropriate for the wire size.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 11:21 
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Light show at FL380


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 12:06 
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Joined: 11/25/16
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Username Protected wrote:
Ask for a block from 410 to 430 that will give you the slow climb or wait till you burn it off and climb, usually within a hour and a half doing the step climb we can get her up to 430.

This trip was from a few weeks ago, we were over Savannah, GA from West Palm, about 12,000 lbs burning, 780 lbs at mach .6

Gary

What are the 2 indicators I've placed red arrows beside?


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