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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 23:53 
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Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
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Username Protected wrote:
Nuts! So strange to have decent weather and fly into the snow/whiteout at the airport itself. Mark, I’m sure seeing familiar landmarks on short final made it more comfortable for you but it must’ve been disorienting nonetheless.

Jesse, nice transition and very smooth, you guys have the composure down!


Great point Chris. What we are used to is IMC all the way to minimums. With lake effect snow it is often VFR and seconds later IMC to minimums. It can muck with your brain.

What I knew was we had 12,000 feet of unobstructed runway. So we weren’t under any particular pressure to get it on the ground and stopped quickly. I also knew that Vmc at 500 didn’t mean Vmc at 200. Practice makes perfect!

As Jesse mentioned and the video shows it was really white. When I initially saw the rabbit I thought great...we golden. But it was apparent it was just a white flash light into a solid white abyss. I told JJ to stay on instruments. We then saw the runway lights basically floating in a vast white space. It was surreal. Note the 660 SYnViz was spot on. Neither of us ever looked at it.

It was a damn fine, soft landing. Sure the snow helped but so did JJ. Fun ride. Never a doubt.

We were hoping for something hard (just cause we were feeling a little feisty I suppose). and Lake Superior didn’t disappoint.

There was a point where I asked JJ if he wanted to hand fly the approach in honor of Mike C. He said sure! I scuttled the idea. All tools in the bag for this one.

Edit: tip of the hat to Dave S. We just hit 200 pages on his brain child. :bow:

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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
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Last edited on 18 Jan 2018, 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Great job guys, gotta love landing in the winter day time. I much prefer landing at night in white out conditions.

By the look of that grin on Jesse's face Mark just hooked him another Citation pilot.

Gary


Yeah...he has got the fever. No doubt. He is Captain ready. Just needs a type. I would put Blondie on board with no fear....wait....not that. But anyone else. :rofl:

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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:12 
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It seems to me that the difference between "Good job guys!" and "What the hell were they thinking?" is whether any particular flight ends up in CrashTalk or not, not what the exact particulars of the flight were just prior to the moment of truth.

In some ways, the landing between the lights thing could have easily led to landing beside the runway (much like the Aspen incident excepting the visibility) if there were some other lights you happened to see not part of the runway.

Imagine if this had resulted in a runway overrun, excursion, or other problem. We'd be counting the strikes against this flight. Landing in snow. More experienced pilot in right seat and not flying. Very low visibility. Very low ceiling. Had to use lights to go the next 100 feet. Unplowed runway. Braking action probably poor. I'm sure we can find a few other risk factors if we back up prior to the approach, or make up some even if there is no evidence.

I am definitely in the "Good job" category and I enjoyed the video a lot. But I am struck but how the very same people who say that here are the ones with such sharp and condemning hindsight over in CrashTalk.

Mark, keep coming with the videos...

Mike C.

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Last edited on 18 Jan 2018, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
It seems to me that the difference between "Good job guys!" and "What the hell were they thinking?" is whether any particular flight ends up in CrashTalk or not, not what the exact particulars of the flight were just prior to the moment of truth.

In some ways, the landing between the lights thing could have easily led to landing beside the runway (much like the Aspen incident excepting the visibility) if there were some other lights you happened to see not part of the runway.

Imagine if this had resulted in a runway overrun, excursion, or other problem. We'd be counting the strikes against this flight. Landing in snow. More experienced pilot in right seat and not flying. Very low visibility. Very low ceiling. Had to use lights to go the next 100 feet. Unplowed runway. Braking action probably poor. I'm sure we can find a few other risk factors if we back up prior to the approach, or make up some even if there is no evidence.

I am definitely in the "Good job" category and I enjoyed the video a lot. But I am struck but how the very same people who say that here or the ones with such sharp and condemning hindsight over in CrashTalk.

Mark, keep coming with the videos...

Mike C.


I can see both sides of that. We had a lot of things going for us. We had the lights. We had 12,000 feet. We were certain they were the correct lights. The risk was flaring too high and damaging the nose gear or worse. But will all that runway we had time. Success. Never felt we were at any high levels of risk. But it ‘‘twas different. Well for JJ. I had seen it before. Once with Julieta at the same drome. Jj is a better pilot for it. Me two. We work wel together. That’s 80% of the battle. Trust him implicitly.

Ironically it was clear 30 minutes later.

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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:30 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
we flew a visual into Kmkc 19 this evening. JJ was keen to make the first turn off 3000ft. So against out better judgement we stayed before the vasi and pushed the nose down to hit the numbers. I have a video I will post tomorrow. The technique simply fails every time. You push the nose down and you get float. Hundreds of feet depending on circumstances. We didn’t come close to hitting the numbers. The key is fly a proper vref approach below the GS and you can tattoo it. Pushing the nose down resulted in lots and lots of float.

_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
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Last edited on 18 Jan 2018, 08:47, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Ironically it was clear 30 minutes later.

If you had an accident, that little fact would be bandied about with great vigor. The implication is that you risked your life for a mere 30 minutes.

People mention it was clear the day after Pascal's accident.

People mention the weather improved at KBOW shortly after the 340 accident.

The true measure of a great pilot is not that they can tell you what went wrong, but that they can tell what is about to go wrong and change that before it happens.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:33 
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Alrighty, arm chair quarterbacking here...........

Hot damn, the portable synthetic vision is scary good, I mean scary good on the numbers. The GPS that I believe has you on the chart (does if have GEO referenciing) is nice to have.

IF it was clear 30 minutes later............that's your sign....................

IF you could see more than I could in that video then I'm okay with that landing........if not then you BOTH made a bad decision.............

Sorry fellas, there's too much risk there IMHO

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:33 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Ironically it was clear 30 minutes later.

If you had an accident, that little fact would be bandied about with great vigor. The implication is that you risked your life for a mere 30 minutes.

People mention it was clear the day after Pascal's accident.

People mention the weather improved at KBOW shortly after the 340 accident.

The true measure of a great pilot is not that they can tell you what went wrong, but that they can tell what is about to go wrong and change that before it happens.

Mike C.


The best measure of a pilot is the one experienced enough both in time and situations and has never has any thing go,wrong. :cheers:
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Power of the Turbine
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:34 
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Mike beat me to it........two Mike's think alike

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
It seems to me that the difference between "Good job guys!" and "What the hell were they thinking?" is whether any particular flight ends up in CrashTalk or not, not what the exact particulars of the flight were just prior to the moment of truth.

In some ways, the landing between the lights thing could have easily led to landing beside the runway (much like the Aspen incident excepting the visibility) if there were some other lights you happened to see not part of the runway.

Imagine if this had resulted in a runway overrun, excursion, or other problem. We'd be counting the strikes against this flight. Landing in snow. More experienced pilot in right seat and not flying. Very low visibility. Very low ceiling. Had to use lights to go the next 100 feet. Unplowed runway. Braking action probably poor. I'm sure we can find a few other risk factors if we back up prior to the approach, or make up some even if there is no evidence.


Mike C.


Landing in snow. Yes
More experienced pilot not flying. Yes, but still making flight decisions.
Low vis/lights etc. More experienced guy monitoring and making decisions.
Unplowed runway. Was reported 1/8” over 1/8” with mod to good braking at IAF. (Obviously that changed)

Decision making and approach profile would all be by the book in the accident report.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:36 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Username Protected wrote:
Alrighty, arm chair quarterbacking here...........

Hot damn, the portable synthetic vision is scary good, I mean scary good on the numbers. The GPS that I believe has you on the chart (does if have GEO referenciing) is nice to have.

IF it was clear 30 minutes later............that's your sign....................

IF you could see more than I could in that video then I'm okay with that landing........if not then you BOTH made a bad decision.............

Sorry fellas, there's too much risk there IMHO


Couple,thoughts:
1)the picture provides a better view we were faced with.
2)video doesn’t pick up the lights well.
3):we saw more than you can see.
4) we were itching for a tough one aka feeling cocky
5) we are a fine team
6)trust each other implicitly.
7)knew the field and plane
8)crm was a must. sP it’s a go around.
9)we knew we had an ALt missed approach plane

But surprise surprise surprise we saw the runway and landed.

_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


Last edited on 18 Jan 2018, 00:57, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:46 
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Username Protected wrote:

IF it was clear 30 minutes later............that's your sign....................



It was 7miles at the IAF. It deteriorated as we approached, but we followed the procedure and had the rabbit and the lights and we greased it into 12,000’x150’.

Single pilot may have resulted in a missed approach if you didn’t time the rabbit visual or didn’t identify the runway lights.

No terrain, no wind, two sets of eyes, and a huge runway.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 00:53 
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Joined: 01/31/09
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Location: Northern NJ
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Username Protected wrote:
we flew a visual into 19. JJ was keen to make the first turn off 3000ft. So against out better judgement we stayed before the vast and pushed the nose down to hit the numbers. I have a video I will post tomorrow. The technique simply fails every time. You push the nose down and you get float. Hundreds of feet depending on circumstances. We didn’t come close to hitting the numbers. The key is fly a proper vref approach below the GS and you can tattoo it. Pushing the nose down resulted in lots and lots of float.


Use the speed brakes until 50’ to stay at Vref while getting a higher decent rate and moving the plane to a lower GP.

It is an advanced maneuver and takes a good feel of the plane to keep the descent path stable as you put the speed brakes out and stow them before you flare.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:01 
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Based on what you both tell me(inferred in your posts), that's more than a reason to divert.

I think that the decision to land, whilst perfectly legal, was a poor one.

flame suit on

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Based on what you both tell me(inferred in your posts), that's more than a reason to divert.

I think that the decision to land, whilst perfectly legal, was a poor one.

flame suit on


Mark got you with the “cocky” comment.


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