25 Apr 2024, 02:25 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 09:43 |
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Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13101 Post Likes: +6970
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I also wanted to say that Mark is an excellent teacher. He is very comfortable in the airplane, flies a ton, and it shows. We didn’t need long/rigid discussions about how it would come together in the cockpit, he just facilitated that as we went and it worked very well in my opinion.
Thanks again Mark.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 09:57 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13588 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Specific to the issue about landing at Customs in KICT. This was a huge win for us and it saved a stop and likely a couple hours. Thanks again Mark B.
Suppose that for some reason we determined that we couldn’t make it into KICT. We had plenty of legal alternatives it’s just none offered Customs. A couple questions...1)should the fact we needed Customs be factored into the legal definition of an alternative. Namely enough fuel to miss and go to an airport that had Customs ? If so should you get landing rights at your alternate and tell them they are just an alternate? (You have to get a Customs official to grant you landing rights prior to arrival). 2) suppose we decided the winds and weather prevented us from landing at a Customs airport. How do you choose where to land, what do you do when you land (at 3am), how big a goat rodeo do you think it becomes? This was going through our minds. WTF do we do? What are the ramifications? Consider our pax. A huge delay messes their schedule up and attracts a lot of attention. “Rockers land at 3am at non-Customs Airport”. Some real TMZ stuff. The unknown could have forced a gethomeits type scenario. Imagine CRM issues. Jesse saying let’s not risk it and land somewhere else. Me saying FT we got to make it cause it is almost worse than death if we don’t. Trust me if the first time you think about it is enroute beyond the “point of no return” it ain’t good. Reminds me a bit of that soccer flight accident in South America.
Not an issue you hear every day! BT strikes again.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
Last edited on 19 Nov 2017, 10:49, edited 3 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 10:04 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13588 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Great trip report, gentlemen.
Good job teaching, Mark. My fav moment was on departure. At V1 a turbo jet pilot must remove their hand from power levers and place it on the yoke. Piston drivers NEVER get this right at first. They are always ready to chop power amd keep it in the ground. Jets are designed such that after V1 you fly regardless of what happens. If your hand doesn’t move off the power levers you will risk chopping power. In the video I knock Jesse’s hand off the power levers. My copilot in the SIM at simcom did the same to me. Lol. I was so shocked. Payback is fun!
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 12:51 |
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Joined: 08/08/12 Posts: 1458 Post Likes: +937
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Username Protected wrote: Specific to the issue about landing at Customs in KICT. This was a huge win for us and it saved a stop and likely a couple hours. Thanks again Mark B.
Suppose that for some reason we determined that we couldn’t make it into KICT. We had plenty of legal alternatives it’s just none offered Customs. A couple questions...1)should the fact we needed Customs be factored into the legal definition of an alternative. Namely enough fuel to miss and go to an airport that had Customs ? If so should you get landing rights at your alternate and tell them they are just an alternate? (You have to get a Customs official to grant you landing rights prior to arrival). 2) suppose we decided the winds and weather prevented us from landing at a Customs airport. How do you choose where to land, what do you do when you land (at 3am), how big a goat rodeo do you think it becomes? This was going through our minds. WTF do we do? What are the ramifications? Consider our pax. A huge delay messes their schedule up and attracts a lot of attention. “Rockers land at 3am at non-Customs Airport”. Some real TMZ stuff. The unknown could have forced a gethomeits type scenario. Imagine CRM issues. Jesse saying let’s not risk it and land somewhere else. Me saying FT we got to make it cause it is almost worse than death if we don’t. Trust me if the first time you think about it is enroute beyond the “point of no return” it ain’t good. Reminds me a bit of that soccer flight accident in South America.
Not an issue you hear every day! BT strikes again. I would pick the closest airport that I could safely land and call customs on the ground. Tell them what happened and that you have not yet opened the cabin door. Yup, it'd be a goat rodeo.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 14:12 |
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Joined: 06/09/09 Posts: 4573 Post Likes: +3298
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
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Mark, was the stuff you were flying through at F320 painting on the radar?
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 14:30 |
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Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13101 Post Likes: +6970
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Username Protected wrote: I would pick the closest airport that I could safely land and call customs on the ground. Tell them what happened and that you have not yet opened the cabin door. Yup, it'd be a goat rodeo.
The only CBP AOE I saw listed in Kansas was KICT. From a safety perspective, we were weighing fuel necessary to get to good weather at ICT vs the low ceilings in Kansas city and of course the customs issue (with high profile people). It was interesting weighing flying lower with better winds (but anti-ice inefficiency) and higher fuel burn vs higher winds on top with better efficiency. This adds a layer of complexity for flight planning. We were also getting intermittent “LE and RE Engine Deice Fail” annunciator lights while cruising in snow.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 14:56 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13588 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Mark, was the stuff you were flying through at F320 painting on the radar? Yeah...nothing scary. Remember at that altitude tilt management is important. It needs to be tilted down to see liquid precip. Too shallow a tilt and you might not see anything before you hit it. They cleared us direct to JOT which according to the "Storm Cell" product of Sirius WX would have taken us through tops showing as FL300. We stayed over FNT because what tops were were showing were max'd at FL250. It is an RDR2000 radar. Good one.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 14:58 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13588 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: The only CBP AOE I saw listed in Kansas was KICT. State of Kansas...correct as Kansas City is in Missouri. Next closest would have been KOKC. But if we couldn't make KICT we sure as hell wasn't making KOKC. KMCI was reporting 1/4 mile viz. Actually landed there once with that reported viz...but that is another story for another time.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 15:05 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13588 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: I also wanted to say that Mark is an excellent teacher. He is very comfortable in the airplane, flies a ton, and it shows. We didn’t need long/rigid discussions about how it would come together in the cockpit, he just facilitated that as we went and it worked very well in my opinion.
Thanks again Mark. Back at ya Jesse. This is another area where BT pays off. We had never met but we both felt like we knew each other very well from reading everything on BT that each other has written. Lot of trust and confidence. Of course, Jesse's may have been misplaced but mine was not
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 15:57 |
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Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13101 Post Likes: +6970
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Username Protected wrote: The only CBP AOE I saw listed in Kansas was KICT. State of Kansas...correct as Kansas City is in Missouri. Next closest would have been KOKC. But if we couldn't make KICT we sure as hell wasn't making KOKC. KMCI was reporting 1/4 mile viz. Actually landed there once with that reported viz...but that is another story for another time.
Obviously we were on the same page regarding trying to make Customs in ICT.
While we were enroute my thought process was this:
1. Remove rockstar pressure from equation (ultimately safety is what they were paying us for anyway). You can’t remove this, but it won’t override a REAL safety issue like running out of gas.
2. Of the two options, I’d rather stretch a known quantity (fuel) knowing we are headed to good weather where improvising was possible VS maintain an EXTRA reserve and fly into unknown ceilings thereby blowing through that extra fuel with a missed approach and leaving yourself with no room to improvise.
A couple of other notes. At CYKF we were given the short runway as someone fodded the main runway just before we landed. Luckily it was cleaned up before our planned full-fuel departure. “Surprise!”
At KICT, approach and tower are combined late at night. They advertised the ILS to the long runways. We had to request the shorter runway, with winds straight down the pipe 21G38, to avoid a ridiculous crosswind.
Lots of complexity, which makes it really fun and interesting. Between my new TN Bo and this type of turbine flying, my fire for aviation is white hot.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 19 Nov 2017, 17:31 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13588 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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The numbers:
Citation G100 Difference Elapsed Time 10.45 4.9 5.55 Flying Time 8.5 4.9 3.6 Turn Time 1.95 0 1.95 Fuel Qty (gal) 1,420 1059.7 360 Fuel Cost $4,140 $3,518 $622 Avg Price $2.92 3.32 $(.40) Cost At Retail $7,844 $4,875 $2,969 Avg Price $5.53 $4.60 $.97 Savings $3,704 $1,356 $2,348 Discount % 47% 28% 19% Savings/Gal $2.61 $1.28 $1.33 Fuel/Hour 167.01 216.266 -49.25
Two takeaways - G100 is the way to go. $1.5m Cap cost. Engine/Parts Cost $750/hr Fuel qty used less, save 5.55 hours Non stop.
Think program fuel makes makes a difference? $3,704 on this trip alone!
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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