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 Post subject: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 13:29 
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Company: Real Estate development
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Some have you have been following another threat named: KA200 vs Citation Isp or IIsp. This fit what I was doing at the time as I needed a larger plane for some trips and had looked at the 200. A friend that had a Citation II in the past recommended I look at one and my maintenance guy has a lot of time in the II. He also thought it would be a great plane for me; so, I stated looking and really liked what I saw. I made a lot of posts in that other thread and got great insight and advise. Now, I've gotten my SIC rating in IISP and am getting more time in a rental/lease plane with an instructor as I move toward purchasing a plane and getting my type and single pilot ratings. So, from here, I'll focus on the Citation II, what it's capabilities are, and may do some comparisons to my KA C90.

Moved a step closer to getting a Citation II. Flying a trip Thursday to see how the plane does at altitude. Spent yesterday afternoon with some folks that will help me find a plane. We've narrowed our preliminary list to four planes, but are open to another if we see something good. Not in a hurry, but we're going to actively start looking and comparing. I needed to get some equity out of my KA so my cash position on my balance sheet didn't deteriorate as I'm actively working with lenders to finance a new subdivision we'll develop. I'll check with a fella flying our plane a bit, but have another fella that has stepped forward and is very interested in purchasing an interest. That will allow me to move forward quicker than I thought.

I've got some more info and talked to a long time pilot about stretching the legs on the Citation by going to long range cruise. He routinely did that in his plane and increased the range quite a bit to avoid a stop. I'll post the charts on the plane and it looks like it could be very beneficial at times.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 13:51 
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Something tells me I ought to pay more attention to your wisdom and knowledge on real estate than on jets, but following along with your progression of aircraft has been educational and entertaining.

Thanks for sharing the ride, so to speak...


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 13:52 
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:popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Something tells me I ought to pay more attention to your wisdom and knowledge on real estate than on jets, but following along with your progression of aircraft has been educational and entertaining.

Thanks for sharing the ride, so to speak...

I'm certainly not holding myself out as an expert, but most of this is pretty factual, Jim. We went through all this on the A-36; then, the P baron; then the KA. There is a whole group of folks that have this idea of how things must be done with all sorts of "reasons". Remember the whole LOP would burn up an engine group. I was told repeatedly not to burn a tank dry on the Bonanza: did it without incident many, many times. Etc. Anyway, I made many five and six hour trips in the A-36 by reducing power a bit, going LOP and extending range. I'm heading you don't buy a jet to go slow! One shouldn't be in the plane more than 3 hours, etc. Well, that may be true for some folks, but I'll show the numbers on long range cruise and relate a story or two. Up to you as to what you think.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:22 
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Exhibit 1 which was posted on the other thread discussed differences in the Citation I II and SII among other things.

http://compair.aviationresearch.com/dat ... age_55.pdf

In particular, this paragraph caught my attention before and we all know the marketing folks probably stretched things a bit. But trying to figure out how far is teh challenge.

Perhaps most important was that the II offered significantly longer legs while operating out of the same short runways used by the I. The tanks-full range of the II was 1,938 nm compared with 1,337 nm for the I. The II could haul six passengers a distance of 1,509 nm, compared with the I, which could carry five passengers only 1,138 nm on the best of days.

I'll post normal Maximum Cruise thrust and LR cruise chats next.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm certainly not holding myself out as an expert, but most of this is pretty factual, Jim. We went through all this on the A-36; then, the P baron; then the KA. There is a whole group of folks that have this idea of how things must be done with all sorts of "reasons". Remember the whole LOP would burn up an engine group. I was told repeatedly not to burn a tank dry on the Bonanza: did it without incident many, many times. Etc. Anyway, I made many five and six hour trips in the A-36 by reducing power a bit, going LOP and extending range. I'm heading you don't buy a jet to go slow! One shouldn't be in the plane more than 3 hours, etc. Well, that may be true for some folks, but I'll show the numbers on long range cruise and relate a story or two. Up to you as to what you think.
Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with the idea of LR cruise in a jet. I don't know crap about jets and am here to learn, not teach.

I was just trying to complement you on your RE business success, not run down how you're planning to fly your jet. Perhaps I did that inartfully...


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:30 
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I'm not taking the time to crop or highlight these. Have to get out of here pretty soon and I'm not a professional writer as you know. But the info is here.

Here's Maximum Cruise Thrust.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:38 
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I guess I should back up and say the cruise climb table shows for a departure at 13,300 pounds, it's 30 minutes to FL370 and fuel used is 698 pounds. For Max rate of climb, 24 minutes and 555 pounds of fuel. Of course, this would be an unrestricted climb. In some parts of the country, there will be a prolonged step up. Here, it's not too bad, but I won't get an unrestricted climb. So, one could add 10 or 15 minutes and 200 more pound of fuel if they want to be conservative. Talking to folks around here, they say they are generally getting to altitude burning 800 to 900 pound of fuel doing cruise climbs. This bird carries just over 5,000 BTW. In the IISP, one can't carry much of a payload with fuel tanks, but in the II, especially with the gross weight increase, it seems very possible to have full fuel and five folks.

So, let's say we get to FL370 having used 900 pounds (using round numbers) and have around 4,100 left (I'll have to check useable fuel later).

Now, we go to Max cruise.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:51 
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At FL 370 at -56C, we use 973; of course, we've used almost 1,000 pounds, so at gross of 13,000, we use 983 per hour. Of course, we can get into NBAA reserves etc, but to keep things simple, let's say we want to land with 1,000 pounds of fuel meaning we can use about 4,000. (By the way, I've made much more precise calcs but don't want to muck up the big picture with that right now. 900 to climb less 1,000 planned to remain at destination leaves 3,100 for cruise and descent. The normal descent table shows 2,000 FPM unrestricted from 37,000 feet uses 185 pounds. Maybe add 100 pounds for a step down? leaves about 2,800 for cruise. So, at almost 1,000 pounds per hour, It's easy to see how folks call this a four hour plane. Cruise climb covered 146 NM no wind; Descent covered 89 and 2.8 max cruise at 363 is 1,016 NM for a total of 1,251 NM.
Of course, all sorts of assumptions and one can say step climbs and descents will change that, headwinds, non standard temps, etc. But this seems a reasonable base case.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:53 
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Now, exhibit 3, long range cruise chart.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
I was just trying to complement you on your RE business success, not run down how you're planning to fly your jet. Perhaps I did that inartfully...


I'm just trying to learn to and going through this like I'm doing really helps me. I'm sure there will be folks that have excellent observations to consider and it really helps me think through this stuff. Didn't take it negatively at all. Aren't you and engineer? This is a straight wing aircraft, not swept. Same aerodynamics should apply with jets pushing it instead of the props we're both used to. Cessna made this to directly compete with the KA200. Staying with the straight wing for that reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 14:58 
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Good stuff Dave. Keep it coming :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 15:02 
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Long range cruise at FL370 is 710 pounds per hour of fuel flow for 13.000 pounds 289 IAS. Of course, in strong headwinds, it's wouldn't makes sense to slow, but in other conditions, we give up some airspeed to extend range.
At this setting, we'd have 3.94 hours of cruise time with a distance covered of 1,138NM. So, it's not a huge factor, but if another 100 to 150 NM could avoid a stop or if over water and mountain and one needs to extend the leg, this could be meaningful. I compute 1,366 NM using this method. But I'm certainly open to other opinions.
I now where Allen flies, the step up and down time would make a huge difference and many tell me they never get the altitude requested.

Now, what I really did in the air after making all these computations was waited until I leveled off, then looked at my destination on the GPS and remaining fuel flow on that unit ;). On many a long flight in other planes, the conditions changed materially enroute. So, it might look like I couldn't make San Diego for instance non-stop. I'd adjust power a bit and see if it made a difference. Along the way, I'd recheck with airports planned along the route. For instance, Yuma was almost always makeable and I used that as my primary stop in route if I couldn't make San Diego. There was also another field about half way from Yuma to San Diego. Of course, adjust to range and conditions at arrival. Did I need to possible go to an alternate and were there instrument conditions, or was it VFR with no reported delays.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 15:20 
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I guess I'm not suggesting going to Long Range Cruise all the time, but there is a relationship between speed and fuel flow: it seems a reduction in speed can extend range a bit. Most of the time, it probably wouldn't matter, but a friend of mine went up with a fella that had been flying his Citation II for years by the book. He said he couldn't make Salt Lake City non-stop. So, they filed to Salt Lake with a planned stop where the pilot usually pulled up. When they got to altitude, my friend tuned in Salt Lake with remaining fuel in the GPS, reduced power and by flying 20 minutes longer (at reduced power) they made it direct landing the reserves they normally used. Seems worth exploring at times.

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Last edited on 17 Aug 2014, 15:27, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2014, 15:26 
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One more point I'll made, then I have to run. One of the planes we looked at had a LOA from FSDO for a low time maintenance program. There is a fella that specializes in getting these. If the plane is flown up to 150 hours a year, all the inspection times are generally pushed back to twice as long. There's a bit more to it, but the dreaded phase V on these, except for part a, becomes a six year instead of three year inspection.
Very interesting. Since I only fly about 150 to 200 hours a year, in a faster plane, it seems very possible I could stay under that limit. I plan to call the fella that has the LOA to get more details this week.

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