banner
banner

29 Mar 2024, 10:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 371 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 ... 25  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 18:31 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/05/09
Posts: 286
Post Likes: +130
Location: Portland, Oregon
Aircraft: MU-2F
Username Protected wrote:
I just plan to use lower altitude airports

That's not really an option for me. :peace: It's -10s or nothing.

A nice BT'er shared his manual with me. A gross weight Solitaire will climb out in the summer OEI, but not well. With two turning, it'll climb about 1,000 fpm slower than the B200.

BTW, the Solitaire is also limited to 8,000ft airports according to the limitations section - so it's not an engine power issue. If you look at the tire speed limitations chart and extrapolate for 10,000 ft, you'd get into speed limits very easily at Leadville if you chose to go there.


just noticed where you live....I agree -10s would be the best option, there are a few nice looking Solitaires for sale right now, don't see any -10 converted K of M models, the -10 M is the hot rod of MU2s if you can find one. Talk to Mike Ciholas as he owned one for 13 years and thought pretty highly of it, but be careful or he will talk you into a Citation V! :bugeye:

Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 18:40 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23615
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
It's -10s or nothing.

Concur. -10 engines save money in the long run with using less fuel per mile, flying higher, and having longer service intervals.

Quote:
A gross weight Solitaire will climb out in the summer OEI, but not well.

About 300 fpm, 30 C, 6400 ft elevation. Not fantastic, but usable.

Quote:
With two turning, it'll climb about 1,000 fpm slower than the B200.

I get about 1730 fpm, same conditions as above.

B200 can do 2700 fpm at gross under those conditions? That's impressive.

Quote:
BTW, the Solitaire is also limited to 8,000ft airports according to the limitations section - so it's not an engine power issue.

Japan just didn't have many high elevation runways, so this limitations came from test limitations. People routinely fly MU2 into KTEX so they violate it at times without consequence.

Another thing to factor for you is the temp limit is ISA + 30. You are getting close to that on a hot day since that would 32 C at 6,500 ft.

Quote:
If you look at the tire speed limitations chart and extrapolate for 10,000 ft, you'd get into speed limits very easily at Leadville if you chose to go there.

You won't hit that flaps 20 takeoff. You might under extreme conditions flaps 5. Any bit of wind helps reduce this effect. I think most MU2 operators just ignore it.

There is some "book says this, most do that" stuff with the MU2. Most of that is pretty reasonable.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 18:47 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
Post Likes: +4410
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
just noticed where you live....I agree -10s would be the best option, there are a few nice looking Solitaires for sale right now, don't see any -10 converted K of M models, the -10 M is the hot rod of MU2s if you can find one. Talk to Mike Ciholas as he owned one for 13 years and thought pretty highly of it, but be careful or he will talk you into a Citation V! :bugeye:


He's been trying! As I said in the hijacked Meridian thread, at some point you just have to draw a line in the sand and say "That's what I'm willing to spend." Otherwise, there's always another plane that does 5% better for only 10% more money.

Here's an eye-opener I found - the MU-2 only has inches to spare if you need to do a 180 on a 75 foot runway, and you have to do it to the left!


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Be Nice


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 19:03 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
Post Likes: +4410
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
I get about 1730 fpm, same conditions as above.

B200 can do 2700 fpm at gross under those conditions? That's impressive.

It's pretty close. I see 2800 fpm around +12 ISA (I checked a recent FlightAware log to verify), and the PT-6s don't seem to be quite as temp sensitive as the Garretts. I routinely get to FL280 in 14 minutes - maybe 13 in the winter, 15 in the summer. I do have a 6,500 ft head start, but that's a reliable time to climb. I'm still doing 1,000 fpm at FL280 on most days. The BLR winglets really help up high.

Quote:
Another thing to factor for you is the temp limit is ISA + 30. You are getting close to that on a hot day since that would 32 C at 6,500 ft.
I've noticed that as well. 32 C is definitely a hot day here (we're not as hot as most people think) but it happens. The B200's limit is ISA +37, which rarely occurs in the US.

Quote:
There is some "book says this, most do that" stuff with the MU2. Most of that is pretty reasonable.
Those are the parts I'm trying to figure out.

_________________
Be Nice


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 19:18 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/21/15
Posts: 109
Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: C182
Username Protected wrote:
what DB does the app read for your plane?


My 5 free iPhone dB apps vary by 8dB. I have never calibrated any of them.

-Bill

From Nov 16, 2020 I repost:

I just downloaded 5 free iOS dB apps.

Set each to A weighting.

Measured a constant noise.

Got 75, 79, 79, 81, 82 dB

Yes, identical location and orientation.

So, pretty different numbers.

I will try again with all 5 in the plane—their respective sensitivity to different frequencies may give different results.

It may well be the case that different microphones (e.g. different phone models) or different versions of the operating system, even with the same program will give different results and different relative results.

So, certainly within like a 10 dB range, we need to take these self-reported numbers much more in the mindset of entertainment than science.

Though changes observed with repeated measurements using the same measurement instrument are likely much more reliable.

I will also note, I am easily entertained.

-Bill


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 19:19 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
Post Likes: +4410
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
A gross weight Solitaire will climb out in the summer OEI, but not well.

About 300 fpm, 30 C, 6400 ft elevation. Not fantastic, but usable.

Yikes.
At a best OEI climb of 150 kts, that's 120 ft/nm. Not only does it not meet TERPS standards, it is less than the actual gradient in most directions to the north of the airport.
It possible that an MU-2 leaving SAF to the north in the summer could do everything correctly during an engine failure and still not clear terrain. Obviously, the true correct thing to do is not depart to the north under those conditions. The terrain drops in almost all directions to the south.
The "danger zone" extends from just after takeoff until you are well above the terrain, instead of the small 5-10 second window that's a concern at sea level.

_________________
Be Nice


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 20:18 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/13/20
Posts: 194
Post Likes: +111
Location: KLOU/KJVY
Username Protected wrote:
just noticed where you live....I agree -10s would be the best option, there are a few nice looking Solitaires for sale right now, don't see any -10 converted K of M models, the -10 M is the hot rod of MU2s if you can find one. Talk to Mike Ciholas as he owned one for 13 years and thought pretty highly of it, but be careful or he will talk you into a Citation V! :bugeye:


He's been trying! As I said in the hijacked Meridian thread, at some point you just have to draw a line in the sand and say "That's what I'm willing to spend." Otherwise, there's always another plane that does 5% better for only 10% more money.

Here's an eye-opener I found - the MU-2 only has inches to spare if you need to do a 180 on a 75 foot runway, and you have to do it to the left!


I'm based at a 50 foot wide runway and can easily make the 180, this is not correct info. (-6 M model)
_________________
-MU-2
-C501


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 20:21 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/13/20
Posts: 194
Post Likes: +111
Location: KLOU/KJVY
If anyone wants to save a few hundred grand on a solitaire, my 290 kt M model will be for sale in 4-6 weeks. Just dropped it off for a hot section on the right engine. Almost Solitaire performance, much lower cost.

_________________
-MU-2
-C501


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 20:30 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
Post Likes: +4410
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
I'm based at a 50 foot wide runway and can easily make the 180, this is not correct info. (-6 M model)

So what numbers in the MU-2 manuals *are* real? This makes it quite tough to make a decision.

Another odd thing - why are landing approach speeds *higher* for flaps 40 than for flaps 20? Even weirder - the landing distance charts for flaps 20 and flaps 40 are literally the same chart - they're actual copies of each other.

_________________
Be Nice


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 20:33 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/13/20
Posts: 194
Post Likes: +111
Location: KLOU/KJVY
Just think, it's going to be way better than you ever could've imagined :-D
That is a quite long explanation on flaps 40 and I'm sure Mike C will do a great job explaining it. I have never used flaps 40 due to the charts, and its just not useful. Flaps 20 for every single takeoff and landing no matter what.

_________________
-MU-2
-C501


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 20:37 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4946
Post Likes: +4785
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
Username Protected wrote:
just noticed where you live....I agree -10s would be the best option, there are a few nice looking Solitaires for sale right now, don't see any -10 converted K of M models, the -10 M is the hot rod of MU2s if you can find one. Talk to Mike Ciholas as he owned one for 13 years and thought pretty highly of it, but be careful or he will talk you into a Citation V! :bugeye:


He's been trying! As I said in the hijacked Meridian thread, at some point you just have to draw a line in the sand and say "That's what I'm willing to spend." Otherwise, there's always another plane that does 5% better for only 10% more money.

Here's an eye-opener I found - the MU-2 only has inches to spare if you need to do a 180 on a 75 foot runway, and you have to do it to the left!


Only had to do a three point turn with beta in my MU-2 once...

Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 21:15 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 6232
Post Likes: +3735
Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Username Protected wrote:

Another odd thing - why are landing approach speeds *higher* for flaps 40 than for flaps 20? Even weirder - the landing distance charts for flaps 20 and flaps 40 are literally the same chart - they're actual copies of each other.

Yeah, that’s an oddity. It was explained to me that in some condition some kind of phugoid can develop with flaps 40. Never felt it myself. But I can tell you that flaps 40 landings can be shorter than flaps 20. Even if you don’t try it, flaps 20 aren’t very long either. The flaps 40 landing attitude is a little flatter, in a good way for my taste, but it does tend to be harder to keep the nose from coming down somewhat solidly upon touchdown.

Fwiw, landing on 30 at KSQL it has been a long time (years) since I did not make the turnoff at taxiway C which is where my hangar row is. Usually have to roll to it. If motivated I can make D. And occasionally with some headwind have made E, though it is not something passengers appreciate as much as pilots. You can use ForeFlight’s safetaxi diagram to measure the distances to those taxiways. ;)

_________________
-Jon C.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 21:17 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 6232
Post Likes: +3735
Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Username Protected wrote:
Only had to do a three point turn with beta in my MU-2 once...

Mark James marshaled me to back it into the space at IJSC on Monday. :)

_________________
-Jon C.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 22:19 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 09/26/09
Posts: 1408
Post Likes: +872
Company: ElitAire
Location: Columbus, OH - KCMH
Aircraft: Piaggio P180
My recollection on the flaps 40 landing distance is approach speed is based on Vs*1.5 in lieu of traditional *1.3. I think the rationale was don’t be slow with those draggy flaps should you lose an engine.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 22:21 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 6232
Post Likes: +3735
Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Username Protected wrote:
My recollection on the flaps 40 landing distance is approach speed is based on Vs*1.5 in lieu of traditional *1.3. I think the rationale was don’t be slow with those draggy flaps should you lose an engine.

Pat Cannon told me about the phugoid oscillation that they found under some condition during flight testing which was why they increased the Vref to 1.5.

But not getting behind the power curve at flaps 40 is also a good idea.

_________________
-Jon C.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 371 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 ... 25  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.camguard.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.tempest.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.Marsh.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.SCA.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.concorde.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.