I've been reading quite a bit on here and wanted to get some feedback on what plane might be the best for my mission profile. There are a few pilots I know well who have provided some input, but I'm leaving their thoughts out for the moment. So here goes.

1. I'm not a pilot. That might be in the cards for me, but it's a very low consideration right now. Obviously I will be hiring pilots.

2. CapEx up to $2.5M (ish)

3. Primary mission - Family of 4 (550-600 lbs) from Indianapolis > Sarasota or Venice

4. Secondary mission(s) - Regional travel from Indy > Chicago, Milwaukee, Columbus, OH, Detroit, etc.

5. Room beyond 4 is a plus but not a requirement

6. Bathroom is a plus but not a requirement

7. Business expense, so Opex isn't as painful

8. Generally not a lot of payload needed (right now).

Thank you all in advance for the information.

A little more information would be helpful.

How often will it fly to Florida?

How often will it fly the regional flights?

What’s your desired flight time for those flights?

How important is passenger comfort?

What’s your expected opex? You can put it in terms of cost per flight, or total cost per year. I know it’s not a key element but it can easily vary by a factor of 3-4x from the cheapest solution to the best.

Do you need to spend all the capex? There are sub $1M solutions that will work, depending on your answers.

1. Let's assume Florida will be 16-18 times per year.
2. Regionals would be 12-15
3. W/O bathroom it would be nice to be sub 3.5 hours on the flight. Obv landing halfway fixes this issue.
4. Comfort is probably one of the highest considerations.
5. Per hour below $1,500 would be good.
6. I'm a bit out of my depth here and I realize answers vary widely. Sub $250k not including upgrades or things like that would be ideal.
7. Capex does not need to be spent. I assume you are talking about a Citation 501?

Brian, I’d do a C90B with Blackhawk 135As.

Supremely comfy for your group, potty, easy to fly and crew, accessible and well documented maintenance - it’s just a great traveling experience.

Textron parts are widely available and parts team attentive & staffed. Acquisition is under budget, great runway performance and weather capability on your routes.

Great plane for you to build experience up front if you desire.

Yeah, I’d suggest a 501. It’s overkill but you have the budget and comfort is a high priority. You’ll be bumping close to that $1500 per hour rate when you add pilots, but you’ll have capex left over to pad that for several years.

Almost any turbine will make the Florida flight in 3.5 hrs or less. If you’re looking into twin turbines, they’ll all work for this mission except for the entry level ones. Single turbines will lose to any other plane when comfort is considered.

Budget owners would be considering a Cessna 421 or a MU-2, but the jet will be more comfortable.

Final answer: 501.

Why would you choose a C90B over an equivalently priced B200?

Don’t have a suggestion per se but your mission is about 760nm. At 250 knots that’s 3 hours, 300 is 2:30 and 350 is 2:10. There is some additional overhead for departures and arrivals.

At this distance you will gain a good bit moving from the mid 200 cruise speeds to 300 but you quickly hit diminishing returns for faster planes. This is even more apparent on the regional flights where a faster plane won’t really cut much time due to the limited cruise time and general overhead.

Consider a legacy PC-12/45. Very comfortable and does all your missions well, and can also take more people when you need to.

Jim, I share your love for the B200 - it’s an incredible airplane, and clearly more capable with range/payload/speed.

I’ve watched KA200 values on the rise the last 3 years; my assumption which very well may be incorrect (I’ve tracked the C90 market more closely) was an equivalent B200 would be a few decades older (or .5-1MM premium), and for the OPs relatively short stage lengths and small payload, the 90 would suffice.

What's the Range of the C90B with the -135's?

3.5 hours at 260 knots with comfy reserves

My concern would be that the C90B works for today’s mission but doesn’t offer much room for growth. For my personal preference, I’d take the older B200 airframe in exchange for future extra capability. The 200 will top more weather than the 90 as well.

I forgot the PC-12 when talking about the comfort of SETPs. It has certainly got a comfortable cabin, but it won’t get over as much weather as the 501 and will have a rougher ride.

I’m still on team 501.

You pretty much describe my profile, except I am the pilot. I fly down to KSRQ a few times per year from almost Indiana, a lot of regional flying on business trips, and some long flights, like even across the country to Las Vegas, Seattle, etc. What you will find is that a more capable airplane will get used more, so your mission profile might expand.

If safety is a priority, nothing will beat a jet. If comfort is a priority, nothing will beat a jet. If speed is a priority, nothing will beat a jet. If operating cost is a priority, almost everything will beat a jet.

$2.5M buys a lot of airplane. I have $1M invested in mine, Citation V, but that was before the price run up. I have had occupant loads from 1 to 9 and often in the 4 to 6 range. I have a potty and it has its own room with doors.

If you can be somewhat flexible, you don't need to hire pilots full time but pay pilots day rates. Rates vary but maybe $800 to $1500 per day would be typical for someone operating out of Indy. Citation pilots are typically not too hard to find.

$1500 an hour is a good budget for a well kept Citation. I am beating that by a fair margin but not I'm not counting engine reserves (I consider that a market value effect more than an on going cost). A lot will depend on your local resources, particularly the shop that maintains the airplane. Indy is not a bad place, I think there are good choices for shops up there. My plane is on a LUMP (low use maintenance plan) which cuts costs quite a bit. Your profile looks like it would fit that plan.

I'm flying KEHR to KSRQ over Christmas, down on the morning of the Wed Dec 20, back sometime around Wed Dec 27. I have a number of empty seats (at least 5), your group can come along if that works out on a sample run of what the experience is like in a Citation V.

Mike C.

I'm working on the various operating costs right now, but if the delta between a KA and the 501 in opex is $100k per year that's a lot of years at a $1M difference in price.

Fantastic information from everyone so far.




You pretty much describe my profile, except I am the pilot. I fly down to KSRQ a few times per year from almost Indiana, a lot of regional flying on business trips, and some long flights, like even across the country to Las Vegas, Seattle, etc. What you will find is that a more capable airplane will get used more, so your mission profile might expand.

If safety is a priority, nothing will beat a jet. If comfort is a priority, nothing will beat a jet. If speed is a priority, nothing will beat a jet. If operating cost is a priority, almost everything will beat a jet.

$2.5M buys a lot of airplane. I have $1M invested in mine, Citation V, but that was before the price run up. I have had occupant loads from 1 to 9 and often in the 4 to 6 range. I have a potty and it has its own room with doors.

If you can be somewhat flexible, you don't need to hire pilots full time but pay pilots day rates. Rates vary but maybe $800 to $1500 per day would be typical for someone operating out of Indy. Citation pilots are typically not too hard to find.

$1500 an hour is a good budget for a well kept Citation. I am beating that by a fair margin but not I'm not counting engine reserves (I consider that a market value effect more than an on going cost). A lot will depend on your local resources, particularly the shop that maintains the airplane. Indy is not a bad place, I think there are good choices for shops up there. My plane is on a LUMP (low use maintenance plan) which cuts costs quite a bit. Your profile looks like it would fit that plan.

I'm flying KEHR to KSRQ over Christmas, down on the morning of the Wed Dec 20, back sometime around Wed Dec 27. I have a number of empty seats (at least 5), your group can come along if that works out on a sample run of what the experience is like in a Citation V.

Mike C.

KA200 or Citation 550/560. 501 is nice, but better suited to the owner/operator and doesn't have the legs a 550 or greater has. It's also a pretty small cabin if you want to take more than 4 people.

Both the 200 and the Citations are generally airplanes that are in demand which means it's a somewhat liquid asset. There are also a range of years and configurations to choose from so you can match a plane to your budget.

It also means you can find well qualified contract pilots. Going rate is around $1200-$1500/day plus expenses for either platform. For short weekend trips expect to keep the pilot(s) with the airplane (and pay day rate + expenses for those days as well), but for longer trips you can airline them home.

The KA200 and Citations are readily dry-leasable airplanes which can offset your costs but do ensure to check with insurance. Insurance tends to be the issue with dry leasing, but it's doable.

Unless you like dealing with the minutia of owning a plane (like many of us here do), I would suggest hiring an airplane manager. They deal with all the miscellaneous stuff like hangar, insurance, maintenance, updating databases, etc, and most importantly scheduling the crews. It makes your trips a lot simpler since you just have to say "Mr. Manager, I'm going to Venice Friday to Saturday, leaving at 2pm" and they take care of the rest. They can also manage the dry leasing of the plane if that's something you want to do.

Robert