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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 10:25 
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Joined: 01/23/13
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Those of you who operate Stearmans/PT-17s, what are you seeing for your hourly costs?


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 12:34 
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Eric,

I don’t have a Stearman. Yet. I fly a Waco. But your question strikes me as odd because these things get flown so few hours that the hourly costs are crazy and vary wildly with use. Lots of them get flown 25 hours a year for example.

Here are my approximate costs:

Hangar $4,500
Insurance $2,500
Annual $1,000
Misc maintenance. $500
Subtotal $8,500

Hours flown 25

Per hour $340

Fuel @ 12gph and $4/gal is another $48

Total $388/hr and very well worth it.

If I’d flown 5O hours I’d add another $250 for oil change and the all in cost would plummet to $223/hr!

My insurance is going up so much at renewal I don’t want to talk about it but the “hourly” cost is even worse.

The way I’d look at it is “what’s the annual fixed cost” and determine affordability from there and then fly as much as you want/can. Gas is inconsequential.

Oh, and if you count cost of capital the hourly rate doubles from above. Market depreciation is largely nonexistent as an expense as these things hold their value.

_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 12:49 
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Joined: 01/28/13
Posts: 6037
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Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
[quote="Tony Caldwell"]Eric,

I don’t have a Stearman. Yet.

I might know a good Stearman to look at in my backyard here... It's for sale

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Chuck
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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 12:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
Eric,

I don’t have a Stearman. Yet.

I might know a good Stearman to look at in my backyard here... It's for sale


Thanks Chuck. I’m not ready just yet. Starting to think about another biplane for the west coast. You can fly all year there. Hangar is first and that’s a long wait.
_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 14:24 
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Joined: 02/22/09
Posts: 2549
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Location: KLOM
Aircraft: J35, L-19, PT17
Username Protected wrote:
Those of you who operate Stearmans/PT-17s, what are you seeing for your hourly costs?


Eric,
I'm on my second Stearman and my expenses just went way up - I bought my partner out. It just wasn't his cup of tea.

As far as operating costs go, I guess my costs are in line with Tony's Waco. I never add them up. At the end of the day, it's a toy that I own because I like it.
Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 13:50 
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Joined: 10/19/08
Posts: 1487
Post Likes: +1743
Location: Far West Texas
Aircraft: B58, C180, GL 2T1A-2
Iconic aircraft I've had, and have the pleasure of flying.
The level of aircraftsmanship is in direct proportion to:

1.- The number of wings in the airplane,
2.- The odd number of cylinders radially arranged around the crankshaft,
3.- The conventional placement of the little wheel where it rightfully belongs.

I suppose that also goes for the "cool" factor, although not necessarily in my case.

TN


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 15:14 
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Joined: 01/23/13
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Company: Kokotele Guitar Works
Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
Username Protected wrote:
Eric,

I don’t have a Stearman. Yet. I fly a Waco. But your question strikes me as odd because these things get flown so few hours that the hourly costs are crazy and vary wildly with use. Lots of them get flown 25 hours a year for example.


Tony & David: thanks for your responses. I'm thinking about this in terms of starting a CAF unit, so it would likely fly more than that. How much more... hard to say. At this point it's still just an idea. But, it sounds like operating a Stearman costs about the same as operating any other plane with a similar amount of power. Fixed costs are similar, fuel burn is similar...


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2020, 09:33 
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Joined: 02/22/09
Posts: 2549
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Location: KLOM
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Eric,
That sounds like a great idea but get an insurance quote before you get too far along. It will likely be your biggest expense. Maybe the CAF can help with that.
Dave

Username Protected wrote:
Eric,

I don’t have a Stearman. Yet. I fly a Waco. But your question strikes me as odd because these things get flown so few hours that the hourly costs are crazy and vary wildly with use. Lots of them get flown 25 hours a year for example.


Tony & David: thanks for your responses. I'm thinking about this in terms of starting a CAF unit, so it would likely fly more than that. How much more... hard to say. At this point it's still just an idea. But, it sounds like operating a Stearman costs about the same as operating any other plane with a similar amount of power. Fixed costs are similar, fuel burn is similar...


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2020, 09:40 
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Joined: 01/23/13
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Company: Kokotele Guitar Works
Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
Username Protected wrote:
Eric,
That sounds like a great idea but get an insurance quote before you get too far along. It will likely be your biggest expense. Maybe the CAF can help with that.
Dave


Dave, units are able to purchase insurance through CAF, and it's pretty reasonable. That's one of the attractions of affiliating with them vs. starting an unaffiliated flying club.


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2020, 11:15 
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Joined: 12/13/07
Posts: 2604
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Location: DFW, TX (KGKY)
Aircraft: B55, PT-17, J3, SNJ
Ran over to Flying Oaks just west of Fort Worth for their Oktoberfest fly-in on Saturday. It was pretty gusty, but down the runway for the most part. Fellow sent me some snaps of our landing. That’s a pretty Stearman, if I do say so myself... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 16:19 
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Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 2252
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Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
Aircraft: C525 BE40 D1K Waco
Gents - I am looking at the purchase of what appears to be a very nice YMF5 Waco. I would appreciate feedback from anyone with experience that could share insight and gotchas into these airplanes. We proposed an annual as a prebuy which the owner accepted.

CK - I will keep this in Fort Worth so maybe we can hook up sometime soon. BTW - that is indeed a pretty Stearman.


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 16:41 
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Joined: 09/02/09
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Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Alex,

Is is a Waco Classic or an antique? I've owned both and they are both great airplanes thought there are lots of differences in the newer planes over the last 20 years in the fuselage. Of course the landing gear geometry of the main and tail gear are highly modified from the original. The Waco factory has very helpful people for questions.

If you're buying an antique Roy and Ben Redmond at Rare Aircraft can be very helpful. If you're buying an antique one of the most knowledgeable people, who has a amazing collection of photos and memory for individual airframes is Barry Branin. I can put you in touch with him if you want.

It's helpful if the prebuy is someone who knows these planes.

Airframe: pay particular attention to the tail wheel, especially on Classics, frame attachment, etc. Check rigging carefully and especially flying wires and attach points. The fuel sight gauges vibrate a lot and it's not uncommon to see tiny leaks develop. You may hear a groaning sound from the lower wing when stirring the stick which isn't uncommon or worrisome. Of course you need to check for corrosion and cracking of ribs, stringers, etc. Look carefully at the stringers and metal frame components back near the tailwheel. Finally, look at every single bolt, nut and screw, safety wired or not, as they all vibrate loose eventually.

I don't know how you check this but it's possible to slight bend the master rod without the engine failing if it was ever even a tiny bit hydraulically locked. I had that issue on a Jake which didn't show up (to me anyway) until we tore the engine down. For engine questions the guys at Radial Engines are very helpful but I don't think anyone knows more about them that Pete Jones at Air Repair.

The National Waco Club has a lot of knowledgeable members and worth joining. It's primarily an original Waco group but there are some Classic owners. They have a decent searchable forum. The American Waco Club has more Classic owners and a lot of original owners too. I belong to both.

_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 18:08 
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Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
Aircraft: C525 BE40 D1K Waco
Thank you Tony. It is a Waco Classic. I PMd you details. I really appreciate the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 20:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Thank you Tony. It is a Waco Classic. I PMd you details. I really appreciate the help.

What year is it? I have a 2017. PM me if I can be of any help.


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 Post subject: Re: Biplane Thread - Experiences, Tips, PIREPS, Pics and Vid
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 20:25 
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Joined: 08/23/11
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Company: Delta/ check o'the month club
Location: Meridian , ID (KEUL)
Aircraft: 1968 Bonanza 36
I got to do a few Stearman rides for the CAF yesterday. Chilly but beautiful day to fly and share the warbird experience!!!

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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