I don't want to open a can of worms here with a Piper vs. Beech thread. What my intention is to open a discussion from those who currently own A36 / G36 and considered a Malibu before making their decision.

My mission is 75% business < 1,000 nm, out and back same day and occasional family trips (family of 4 - wife and 9 year old daughter and 5 year old boy). The family trips will mostly be same day < 600 nm with maybe an occasional overnight trip of 1-3 days. They are not terribly fond of flights more than 2 hrs long, so faster = longer radius and more places we can go see together.

The wife and kids are far from light packers so high useful load and lots of baggage space is attractive. I'd like to think I'd be able to convince the family to take trips in the airplane on our 2X / year Florida trip but my gut tells me that this will continue to be an airline trip as it's ~6 hrs in a Bo at best. Plus if you saw the way we all packed for this trip, I don't think we'd ever get everything in a Bo. We'd likely have to greatly change our packing strategy or ship some stuff there ahead of time. Not good selling points for the wife and kids vs. taking the airline.

I like the idea of a modern 6 seater with club seating, FIKI with at least some glass up front. A quick list of candidate aircraft would include the A36, Mirage and Saratago II. The advantages of the Mirage include pressurized cabin, more roomy cabin, ability to move from front to back during flight, higher useful load and more baggage capacity. As I look around at candidate a/c, it seems that an A36 equipped how I'd want it is going to run at least $400K. For $400-500K, there are some very attractive options in a Mirage that have me asking myself why a Bo would be better than a Mirage.

In talking to quite a few Mirage drivers, the engine troubles are a common problem but for those that don't push them too high (16-18K max), the engines appear to last much longer. The Mirage also appears to be more complex and would likely involve mandatory Flight Safety training but that's not a deal breaker. I'm certain the overall cost of ownership would end up being higher in the Mirage but I don't believe it's dramatically different.

What are your thoughts? What made you choose an A36 / G36 over a Mirage?

Don,
I think you can find an A36 for half of that $400,000....unless you just want one that's newer.

I've never been in a Mirage -- would like to fly in one sometime. Are the useful loads really more than in the BE-36?

I'm looking mostly at newer / cleaner A36 / G36 and every time I find one I'd consider and price out additional options to get it where I'd like it (G500, G430/530), FIKI, I always seem to end up at $400K+.

You can find multiple examples of Mirage's (late 90's, early 2000's) that fall in the $400K-$500K range.

In don't think there's an enormous difference in useful load. You'd really have to find a couple of specific models and compare but I think you'd end up with ~100# more useful in a comparable Mirage. The ones I've seen seem to range from 1200-1300# useful.

Don, if you haven't been in one, I'd suggest sitting in the Malibu before going very far down that road.

Some folks find it to be just peachy. Others have a really hard time getting into the pilot and co-pilot seats, and find the front seats to be uncomfortable.

Are you multi-engine rated, or would you consider that?

If so, that opens a whole bunch of options for pressurization.

Tom, I sat in one awhile ago and remember just a bit of dancing to get up front but I'm not a big guy so it wasn't much of a factor. I do need to sit in one again for sure.

I'm not multi-engine rated and not multi-engine interested at this point. My personal feeling is that it's a huge increase in complexity and operational costs for limited gains. That's just my personal feeling and the subject of another thread...

I liked the Malibu and the Matrix. But they're a lot more $$ than a Bonanza.

That said, I really like my Bonanza more. I think it has much better performance.

Run the numbers - unless I am mistaken, you may find a pretty significant problem with useful load for the Mirage, maybe less so for the Matrix. Nice cabin, and the airstair door is something wives like, for some reason. I have had to explain the costs of Malibus to my wife before.

Yup. A Malibu does not have the same utility as a Bo.

You need to explain this one to me guys. Sure, I'm looking at used options and you have to look specifically at individual models to get a fair comparison...

However, a new G36 publishes a useful load of 1,133 # and a new Mirage publishes 1,212 as it's useful.

I'm also fuzzy on the more performance in a Bo you mention Jason. A Mirage has a 200+ kt cruise. What performance advantage does a Bo have?

All this came about for me with a fellow pilot who just bought a very clean 10yr old Mirage with FIKI and upgraded to G500 panel. He has less than $500K total in it and loves it. He was looking for a partner and to me that seemed like a heck of a lot of airplane for $250K on a 1/2 share.

Compare required fuel loads. Like I said, I may be wrong, but a lot of peeps have done this analysis and ended up concluding that the Malibu is a great plane - for shorter trips with a full cabin, or longer trips, light.

Am also told the plane flies fine over-loaded... but I would not counsel that!

That's a good point Spike. I did some very rough calcs on this one. I don't like reading too much into this by using manufacturer's data since a great deal of information is missing regarding speeds, mission profiles, etc, but...

G36 (new) - from HBC:
Usable fuel (std) = 73.7 gallons
Range (with VFR reserves) = 930 nm
nm / gallon (usable) = 12.61

Mirage (new) - from Piper:
Usable fuel (std) = 120 gallons
Range (with VFR reserves) = 1343 nm
nm / gallon (usable) = 11.19

So, the Bo is ~12% more fuel efficient that the Mirage. That means (VERY roughly) that you'd need to carry 12% more fuel for the same mission in the Mirage.

As an example, if your mission required 50 gallons in the Bo, you'd need 56 gallons on board in the Mirage. That 6 gallons requires 36# more useful load.

If you're mission needed 70 gallons in the Bo, you'd need 84 gallons in the Mirage. That extra 14 gallons would require 84# more useful load.

Based on this back of the napkin match, this certainly closes the gap in useful load between the two.

I think you should compare a TAT TN G36 w/ tips and the gross weight increase to the Piper.

Jason C can give you the real world specs.... he doesnt have the tip tanks but you can get the drift....

Don,

With your requirement of 1000nm round trip, or even 600nm in one day, both of these are the wrong plane... you need something in the 300kt range, and perhaps a jet in the 1000nm range.

I find that a one day trip, out and back, I could argue against anything over 2 hours (your family's limit) so you're in the 300 to 350 range. And even that is a LONG day for a one day event, flying, doing the event and returning.

I'd not do it, as a rule... unless I had a copilot, or was mainly doing the flying... not the activity. I've done a few trips with a total of ~4 hours each way, where we looked at real estate stuff. On one of the legs, I stayed at the airport and took a nap... or I wasn't doing the return trip that day. I've had a few 1500 to 2000nm days, but only with a copilot (in the Baron/Bonanza).

Now, back to the plane..... I've been in both, flown both, but only owned the Bonanza (36, not G36, which I wouldn't want). I think it's prudent to look at the loading on a particular plane. There's lots of both out there with very limited payload and full fuel. The earlier Bonanza do a lot better, and could argue for speed, one could get a mid 70s A36, put a TN in it, TKS, and whatever panel they wanted and could be a very cost effective way to get good loads and reasonable speed for those longer trips... plus the ice capability.

Larry,

Great points there. I agree that 8 hrs in the airplane in one day is a lot. So allow me to clarify. The longer trips I plan to make out and back are for business and I can set the radius limit myself. The criteria is to go out, hold a 1-2 hr meeting and be back for dinner. Realistically that limits me to one way flights of roughly 3 or 3.5 hrs max. I've done 6 or 7 hrs in the skylane in a day and havent felt too fatigued however that was vfr. 6 or 7 hrs in a day of hard ifr would be a serious drain.

A faster airplane means that my radius becomes larger. So with that being said, my radius is more like 500-600 miles in the Bo.

I have the luxury of adjusting my mission to the 'home by dinner' criteria and the more airplane I can get simply grows my geographic footprint. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a 300kt cruiser. I just don't see that being on option.

Your point about an older a36 with lots of upgrades is a good option as well. I guess I see the Malibu as a much more comfortable option for the family but I can't say yet.

I had a friend who had a Malibu, cool airplane with the pressurized cabin. It was about the same speed at altitude as the TN Bo, maybe slightly less. Very tight cabin and not very roomy in the pilot/ copilot quarters. Fuel burn seems like it was 20 GPH or so and realistic full fuel payload was fairly low. Sold the Malibu and upgraded to a Beech....no not a Bonanza, King Air C90.