BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 09:36

Username Protected wrote:

7 years of 2005 Meridian ownership here.
1200 hours @ $223 per hour in total maintenance including annuals.
That's tires, batteries, everything and a Hot section included.
Only an occasional mid year stop for tires or simple squawks.
Never scrubbed a flight and 8-14 day annuals are the norm.

2025 annual will be >$50k as prop and FCU are due but wont hurt
the average much.
This aircraft and my full service shop allowed me to concentrate on work and family, not managing an aircraft, and has paid off with dividends! Retirement dividends

I have been penciling out jets for 5 years and the math, even Mike C's math, never worked out for me. I often fly with just one passenger and when i need to take 4 or more i just shuttle them from the nearest non stop commercial flight to our destination and everyone is happy.

8-12 days seems like a fantasy for an annual. I did all of mine at Malibu Aerospace and I don’t think they got through their initial assessment in that amount of time.

I did 3 years in my ‘06 Meridian and each annual was at least a 6-week event. My last 12 months of ownership, I was down a combined 5 months for things like a bad Meggit DAU and a defective overhauled starter generator.

Everyone talks of running their Meridian annual to annual, but mine was a maintenance hog.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 10:54

Username Protected wrote:

Slight thread drift -

When a piston powered / certified aircraft is converted to a turbine, the redline moves down to the top of the green arc, correct?

What are the reasons behind this requirement?

Thanks - Phil

For the cert regs, piston aircraft are assumed to cruise at Vno (top of green). Turbine aircraft are assumed to cruise at/near Vmo/Mmo

So, for aircraft with Vmo/Mmo there are certification requirements beyond redline. Basically demonstrating that inadvertent exceedences beyond Vmo/Mmo due to turbulence, inattention, etc are recoverable. The speed margins are aircraft specific, and not published.

For aircraft using Vne there is nothing. Vne is the end of the known universe. The yellow arc is your margin. An aircraft that is completely uncontrollable 5 knots beyond Vne would be certifiable.

Turbine aircraft have to use Vmo/Mmo, so conversions have to convert. They could establish a higher Vmo/Mmo as part of the STC, but it would take extra flight testing and analysis.

Byron

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 12:17

For annual maintenance my Mirage and 421 both cost more per year in money and down time than my 501. That’s for annual and inspections.

All 3 have had other issues outside of scheduled maintenance.

Mike

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 15:20

I believe you Michael that you can maintain a 501 for less than the $38kplus yearly average on my Meridian. And I have been luckier than most on this plane.
I want a jet bad, but you said something last October that will keep me from owning a legacy jet (as my only aircraft).
“We are flying commercial to Nashville because the fuel costs are crazy”
I know, that’s how I think also.
Now I just need find a local dry lease arrangement or partnership!!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 18:52

Username Protected wrote:

“We are flying commercial to Nashville because the fuel costs are crazy”
I know, that’s how I think also.

There is at least a $500k and more like a $1M delta between a 501 and Meridian/M500. An annual return on that buys a lot of jet A. You can also fly further, faster, higher in a substantially more comfortable, quieter, smoother aircraft.

There are good reasons to fly turboprops. But all in costs comparing turboprops to legacy part 91 citations is not one.

I also hate paying expensive fuel bills, but it is not rational when considering total cost of ownership. It still hurts though. Now if fuel prices double, that’s another story.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 19:39

Regarding OP question about Jetprop. Talk to the specialty shops that maintain PA46 and ask about part availability like the special nose wheel.

Regarding Citations vs a Meridian. Show me one built after 1982 with less than 5000TT having more than 2000 hours remaining on the engines a Garmin glass cockpit with Garmin autopilot, insurance cost for less than $15,000.00 per year. That you can buy for less than $1.2M, that is what you can get an early Meridian that is upgraded for. I find it entertaining the people that compare capital cost of a Citation to a Meridian that might be 40 years newer.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 20:12

Steve at Midwest Malibus, Malibu Aerospace, or Joe Casey would be great resources for pros/ cons of the Jetprop. I would start with Joe Casey. His Malibu Guru podcast has a couple of episodes regarding the Jetprop. I would also consult your insurance to see if there is a difference.

Username Protected wrote:

compare capital cost of a Citation to a Meridian that might be 40 years newer.

I agree this is thread drift but I am honestly curious what this means. More mx? Harder to sell? Does this somehow increase overall ownership costs? My insurance is the same in the citation as the meridian for the same hull value. Should decrease next year with more time in type.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 21:05

Username Protected wrote:

Regarding OP question about Jetprop. Talk to the specialty shops that maintain PA46 and ask about part availability like the special nose wheel.

Regarding Citations vs a Meridian. Show me one built after 1982 with less than 5000TT having more than 2000 hours remaining on the engines a Garmin glass cockpit with Garmin autopilot, insurance cost for less than $15,000.00 per year. That you can buy for less than $1.2M, that is what you can get an early Meridian that is upgraded for. I find it entertaining the people that compare capital cost of a Citation to a Meridian that might be 40 years newer.

Yep, no way you are getting insurance on a Legacy Citation for $15k a year, and now we are seeing real challenges and higher premiums for any older turbines. When I first had someone tell me he was selling his 1981 King Air C90 because his insurance company wouldn't renew the policy, I thought he was making it up!

If you are considering buying an older aircraft one of your first phone calls needs to be to your insurance broker. Ask them the difference between insuring a 1980's aircraft and 1990's / newer. It's not a huge problem, but when we are talking about minimal op cost it's a big enough difference to matter.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 21:08

Username Protected wrote:

I agree this is thread drift but I am honestly curious what this means. More mx? Harder to sell? Does this somehow increase overall ownership costs? My insurance is the same in the citation as the meridian for the same hull value. Should decrease next year with more time in type.

Interesting, does anyone know what the insurance companies consider old enough to be a problem?

Paging Tom Hauge!

Obviously it's an issue on a 1981, is it different for a 1989 like Ross's?

Is 40 years the magic number?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 21:55

Username Protected wrote:

Interesting, does anyone know what the insurance companies consider old enough to be a problem?

Paging Tom Hauge!

Obviously it's an issue on a 1981, is it different for a 1989 like Ross's?

Is 40 years the magic number?

It varies - some look at pre-1990...others look at the 18 year GARA act as a benchmark. I'd say anything early 90's and prior in general is considered 'older'. Doesn't mean older is uninsurable just means likely fewer markets will be interested.

Same holds true for early GIV's versus a new G650ER - fewer players in that older G space than a brand new bird.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 22:09

Username Protected wrote:

Interesting, does anyone know what the insurance companies consider old enough to be a problem?

Paging Tom Hauge!

Obviously it's an issue on a 1981, is it different for a 1989 like Ross's?

Is 40 years the magic number?

It varies - some look at pre-1990...others look at the 18 year GARA act as a benchmark. I'd say anything early 90's and prior in general is considered 'older'. Doesn't mean older is uninsurable just means likely fewer markets will be interested.

Same holds true for early GIV's versus a new G650ER - fewer players in that older G space than a brand new bird.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Mar 2024, 22:09

My .02 on Rocket, owning a Mooney Missile which is what Rocket cut their teeth on before converting Pipers.

Absolutely no issues getting help from Rocket, either advice, part #’s, or service (engine mount overhaul) as recently as a month ago and for the entire 2 years I’ve owned the plane. I suspect that someone will take over support of their STCs should they close up, but getting service direct from Rocket hasn’t been an issue for me.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Mar 2024, 07:57

Username Protected wrote:

I’ve been told that older than 1990 there’s only two underwriters that will quote it, is that true?

Chip-
It just depends on the value of the asset and limits needed - as under $1m asset value there is a lot of capacity. So if you don't need more than $1m limits and the asset value is say $500k then there are more than 2 markets who might play ball.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Mar 2024, 08:34

Who would fly a 6 ton airplane with 2 tons of explosive ordnance on it with 1 mil liability insurance? Especially carry employees, or anyone else. That would be, in my opinion, irresponsible.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Mar 2024, 08:38

Username Protected wrote:

Regarding OP question about Jetprop. Talk to the specialty shops that maintain PA46 and ask about part availability like the special nose wheel.

Regarding Citations vs a Meridian. Show me one built after 1982 with less than 5000TT having more than 2000 hours remaining on the engines a Garmin glass cockpit with Garmin autopilot, insurance cost for less than $15,000.00 per year. That you can buy for less than $1.2M, that is what you can get an early Meridian that is upgraded for. I find it entertaining the people that compare capital cost of a Citation to a Meridian that might be 40 years newer.

https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... t-aircraft

I think 400k would cover the Garmin upgrade (man, I would hope so anyway).

Still waiting on the GFC600 to make its way to citations

jetprop? pro's and con's