$5M liability is not a lot different. Your statement is pretty close to saying flying is irresponsible.

I fly an 8 ton airplane with up to 3 tons of fuel carrying up to 9 people and I have $3M liability insurance. My coverage is basically like a fig leaf on a statue.

Fuel is not "explosive ordnance", BTW.

Mike C.

Guess it depends on how you look at it.

There is a big difference between "exploding" and "burning". Explosions contain their own oxygen and thus occur extremely quickly, burning requires atmospheric oxygen and thus are a lot slower.

Characterizing a plane as bomb is incredibly misleading and can cause negative impact to aviation's public perception.

Mike C.

Deflagration versus explosion or, if you will, detonation.

I believe the distinction also includes whether the reaction propagates at subsonic speeds (low explosives like gunpowder) or supersonic speeds/shock waves (high explosives' like TNT).

Not much to add here, but I was in the market for a SETP about 4 years ago. I looked hard at Jet Prop / early years Meridians. I had around 1600 hours ish but could only find one insurer to quote me (I live in Canada, so the insurance market is likely different). It was about 6.5% of hull value (I had no turbine time). My current insurer won't insure them regardless of time on type.

The other comment is regarding the useful load of the Jetprop. I looked at many, and spoke to multiple owners on this subject. I think I found one that had a useful load around 300 lbs with full fuel - it was the very early version PA46's. Most were under 200 lbs with many under 100 lbs, and one was -14 lbs with full fuel. I was told lots of people fly them over gross by 500-1000 lbs. I had a tough time with that, but everything else about the plane really appealed to me.

I ended up with a P210 Silver Eagle but the biggest shortcomings (for me anyway) is the slow cruise speed and the ceiling limitation / high cabin altitude of FL230.

Garth

Not sure what caused the in fight break ups of JP that I read about back when researching them. Maybe it was flying way over gross and in bad weather. Maybe the personality type that will own and fly a JP is more of a risk taker? Either way for me in flight break up is super scary.

One thing I know is flying 500-1000lbs over in a 5000lb gross plane is nuts. If I was 100lbs over in my Mirage I was freaked out. Which is the same wing as the JP.

My Eagle II is very much like the JP in payload limitations. It has only 500lbs useful load with full fuel (4500lbs). But there is a huge difference between flying 500lbs over gross in a 12,500lb plane than 500 over in a 5000lb plane. Especially when I burn thru 500lbs before I get to cruise.

If you look at the wing structor of a Mirage compared to a 501 you would be shocked that anyone would fly a PA-46 1000lbs over gross.

And a JP cost more to buy than a 501, by a lot. thats a lot of fuel cost left over.

I am guilty as anyone that I think my plane is the best plane. I know the JP guys are the same way and they will fight to the death to defend the JP, some literally.

Mike

The JP has a unique demand in Europe where it falls below the weight for higher ATC charges that hit the Meridian and any other turbine aircraft. That and lowest fuel cost per mile keeps interest high. That doesn’t mean US pilots don’t appreciate the JP but the trade offs versus Meridian are different in Europe.

If you include the same cabin load the Meridian and JP are very similar in range of course up to the point where the Meridian is at max which is typically about 750 miles. The JP can go farther in terms of fuel capacity versus burn but then nothing left for the cabin.

It’s been a few years since I stopped following the accidents but every one I looked at was flight into a thunderstorm that would have broken other aircraft. Like 90 percent of accidents its pilot judgement not the airplane. When I moved from Meridian to the Mustang and got my first (and only) type rating I learned how the standards and decision making are higher. The same population who have average several fatals per year move into the Mustang and it stops. It’s training and culture. In the jet world all instructors teach the same book and live by the limitation. In the PA46 world many of the instructors are jealous of each other and do things their own way.

In 16 years there has been exactly one Mustang fatal accident where pilot judgement was the cause. That was a pro crew flying a home made approach into the side of a mountain. The approach design itself was ok but they flew it near Vmo of 250 indicated so the turn radius was too wide. Most Mustang are owner flown pilots came from that piston/setp population that killed a few every year due to poor decisions. Did they become smarter? No they started following SOP and stay within limits.

The only other Mustang fatal in 17 years was a suicide. The guy left a note. I guess you could call that judgement as well!

So my point is that the JP is a great airplane if your mission fits the limitations. If you think the weight limits don’t apply to you there may be bad things coming your way. Unfortunately the attitude that the plane can handle another 500 lbs started with the guy who created the thing. He told me so more than once during the demo he did with me. At one point my 1yr old Mirage was going to be converted. It would have been the first G1000 JP. Ultimately did not happen because Rocket could not get autopilot data from Piper that was required for certification. Garmin was not allowed to supply the data because Piper owned it.

I did speak with Rocket as well when I was looking and expressed my concerns on the low useful loads - they told me that an STC was coming for the upgross. Not sure if it was mentioned earlier but i was told by many other sources that the STC would never be approved because Piper had to sign off on part of it and wouldn't. Not sure what all the specifics were.


Garth