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27 Apr 2024, 12:11 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2024, 13:52 
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Joined: 06/24/14
Posts: 94
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Location: Fort Worth, TX (KFTW)
Aircraft: C421
Username Protected wrote:
I usually start to slowly pull back 1" per minute at something like 8 - 10 minutes from landing, usually stopping at 25" until short final.


Why?

I usually kept power up until pretty close to the airport and/or I needed to slow for some other reason (redline, traffic, etc).

The 1”/minute thing doesn’t do anything to help the engine.

Robert


Of the 3 mentors I flew with in my first 50 hours, 2 were adamant about the procedure I described. The other, like Robert and Gerald, said it did nothing to help the engines. I challenged all three pilots (who all had between 2,000 - 5,000 hours in a 421) on their conflicting opinions/procedures. In a nut shell, neither camp could provide hard data, but both sides were so certain that they were correct, they'd rather shoot the family dog than say that the other side had it right.

I experimented a little (trying each method) a couple years ago. I couldn't "feel" or notice anything different from the airplane other than my turbine inlet temperatures were a little bit lower taxiing the plane to parking when I reduced the power as described above. I think that most 421 pilots run the engines at about 900 - 1000 rpm for a few minutes before shutdown (that's certainly what is preached at my recurrent training facility) to, among other things, lower those temps.

Ultimately, I decided that two guys' opinions were worth more than one...and that even if majority was wrong, that reducing the power as described in the last few minutes of the flight was probably not damaging to the engines. Perhaps I've been wrong the whole time...I'm not married to my method, I am always willing to listen (especially if I'm wrong), and I'll pet the dog afterward regardless of what smarter and more experienced people try to help me with.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2024, 16:51 
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Joined: 10/24/19
Posts: 147
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Location: Central NY, (N03)
Aircraft: 421C
Over these past 30+ years of flying these air-cooled piston jobs (airplanes & helicopters), and nothing else, I’ve adhered to what I was taught by instructors with regard to engine power/temperature management. If it made sense to me, I would remember it. Progressing from the 90hp C-150 to the 375hp (ea) 421, the larger the piston engine the more susceptible they are to temperature changes. Thus, requiring a smoother, gentler touch vs a ham fisted one. Staying ahead of the plane with regard to descents, I’m a proponent of the 1-2” at a time to prevent any big temp changes/shock cooling. At $100k per engine, I’m interested in longevity and even though I understand the LOP crowd, I’m in the ROP camp. Mostly because after speaking with 135 operators who run these large geared engines to TBO, they do so by keeping the temps cooler, (I know, I know - there’s another side to the curve). Fuel & oil are the cheapest part of ownership and provide the best insurance for longevity imo. So, if burning a few more gallons per hour gives me my best chance of making it to TBO, then it’ll be worth it. Of course I won’t know until I get there (or don’t). But, it makes sense to me so, that’s what I do. :peace:


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2024, 16:57 
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Joined: 11/07/22
Posts: 116
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Aircraft: 414A
Username Protected wrote:
Over these past 30+ years of flying these air-cooled piston jobs (airplanes & helicopters), and nothing else, I’ve adhered to what I was taught by instructors with regard to engine power/temperature management. If it made sense to me, I would remember it. Progressing from the 90hp C-150 to the 375hp (ea) 421, the larger the piston engine the more susceptible they are to temperature changes. Thus, requiring a smoother, gentler touch vs a ham fisted one. Staying ahead of the plane with regard to descents, I’m a proponent of the 1-2” at a time to prevent any big temp changes/shock cooling. At $100k per engine, I’m interested in longevity and even though I understand the LOP crowd, I’m in the ROP camp. Mostly because after speaking with 135 operators who run these large geared engines to TBO, they do so by keeping the temps cooler, (I know, I know - there’s another side to the curve). Fuel & oil are the cheapest part of ownership and provide the best insurance for longevity imo. So, if burning a few more gallons per hour gives me my best chance of making it to TBO, then it’ll be worth it. Of course I won’t know until I get there (or don’t). But, it makes sense to me so, that’s what I do. :peace:


You know, I agree here. This is exactly how I operate my 414A.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2024, 16:58 
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Joined: 01/24/10
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
I have ran two sets of engines out to TBO, my neighbor owns 3 421’s on charter and has more than 10,000’hours operating these engines. We “do not “use the one inch per minute technique. Smooth power applications and common sense is all that is required.

Running the engines at 900 to a 1000’rpm for a couple of minutes before shutting down is doing more harm than good. Gammi proved it with a temp probe inside the turbo.
The engines are at the coldest when you leave the runway.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2024, 17:01 
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Joined: 06/26/10
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Location: 74S - Anacortes, WA
Aircraft: 58P
I’m still amazed 23 gph keeps that engine cool ROP, and that you get 228 KTAS - that’s a big airplane. I’m impressed.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2024, 17:33 
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Joined: 07/06/14
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Location: MA
Aircraft: Cessna 340A
I use the 1"/minute not due to any fear about shock cooling, but as a convenient way to do a gradual transition from cruise speed to approach speeds. There's no need to show up in the pattern screaming along at 180 IAS, well above flaps speed and gear speed.

If there is a need to change to power faster, I'll go ahead and make the faster power reduction.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2024, 14:37 
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Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 3356
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Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
Username Protected wrote:
Lower airspeed will reduce oil cooler effectiveness. Slowing down might have helped a bit. Might put the gear out if speed allows and use more engine power at a slower airspeed.

Mike C.



I've found this to be true in my Columbia 400. At high speed cruise (65-68%), at mid-teens, I never even reach 170f oil temperature, even on an ISA +20F day. There's an SB to replace the oil cooler and vernatherm on the TSIO550-C to correct this. It's kind of expensive and I haven't gotten around to doing.

Weirdly, at lower power cruise, like 50-55%, especially at lower altitude, I get higher oil temperatures.

The cowling on the Columbia is very effective at cooling the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2024, 14:50 
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Joined: 01/24/10
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
A 421C engine PROPERLY baffled runs cool with no cowl flaps. The 414 and 340 engines run hotter and can require more gradual cooling than 421C engines.

On 421C engines be kind to the prop and quill shaft with smooth power adjustments.
Do not put the prop controls up for landing. Keep positive torque on the gear train.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2024, 16:14 
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Joined: 12/29/10
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Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
For the 1” per minute crowd, how long is your takeoff roll? Sure seems like it would take a lot of runway to add power at 1” a minute…

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2024, 23:04 
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Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2408
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Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
The MVP-50's in 421EE have a 'shock cooling' display. When we first bought it I watched those numbers quite a bit.
Pulling 1"/minute in the descent vs cruise power all the way down and reducing to 25" a few miles out made very little difference in shock cooling.

I can't find any pics of a descent, here are the numbers in cruise (LOP this time) and climb.

When the GTSIO's are dialed in and maintained well they're hard to beat.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Jack Stull


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2024, 12:38 
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Joined: 06/24/14
Posts: 94
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Location: Fort Worth, TX (KFTW)
Aircraft: C421
Regarding the 1" per minute crowd on takeoff power, I try to operate out of Edwards Air Force Base as much as I can for this reason.


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