29 Apr 2024, 04:23 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 19 Jan 2024, 23:35 |
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Joined: 05/27/15 Posts: 166 Post Likes: +24 Location: KBED
Aircraft: MU2 P model
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Username Protected wrote: Chip: I only bought the MU2 because it’s seemingly insulated from all this. Yes, the price rose with inflation, but not on tax policy or bonus depreciation. Curious what a phenom 100 price looks like from 2017 on? You have that chart at your fingertips? Actually don’t stop there. Please give us TBMs & CJs…
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 20 Jan 2024, 00:16 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6791 Post Likes: +7357 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Chip: I only bought the MU2 because it’s seemingly insulated from all this. Yes, the price rose with inflation, but not on tax policy or bonus depreciation. Curious what a phenom 100 price looks like from 2017 on? You have that chart at your fingertips?
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Last edited on 20 Jan 2024, 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 20 Jan 2024, 00:20 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6791 Post Likes: +7357 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Chip: I only bought the MU2 because it’s seemingly insulated from all this. Yes, the price rose with inflation, but not on tax policy or bonus depreciation. Curious what a phenom 100 price looks like from 2017 on? You have that chart at your fingertips? Actually don’t stop there. Please give us TBMs & CJs…
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 01 Feb 2024, 12:04 |
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Joined: 10/05/11 Posts: 9586 Post Likes: +6461 Company: Power/mation Location: Milwaukee, WI (KMKE)
Aircraft: 1963 Debonair B33
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Username Protected wrote: Who do you think designs, builds, maintains, and services these airplanes? Bonus depreciation was all about stimulating the sales of airplanes and expanding the market, which created jobs. And it did just that.
I personally think depreciation is government theft, particularly in high inflationary times. You buy an asset but then can't offset your profits by only a fraction of it per year. Meanwhile the future dollars you get back are worth less than those today.
For a 7 year property like an airplane, it has a noticeable effect. For 39 year real estate, it is a huge factor, you end up paying taxes on today money and getting only a fraction of the present value back over time, something like 30%, so you paid taxes on 70% of the value of the property for profit you didn't make.
IMO, all business property should be 100% expensed in the year you buy it. That's when it cost you money, so get the tax benefit then.
Either that, or the depreciation needs to have inflation escalators.
Mike C. Should/Could asset depreciation* as it pertains to taxes be the same as the treatment in GAAP? Could they be normalized without creating chaos? Should/Could assets be depreciated* based on actual market value instead of arbitrary schedules? I imagine this would create armies of certified appraisers for all sorts of business assets. This would, of course, affect the use of the tax code as a tool of congress. Not saying this is good or bad, just pointing it out. Interesting mental exercise to consider. *maybe "valuation" is a better term.
_________________ Be Nice
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 01 Feb 2024, 12:28 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6791 Post Likes: +7357 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Who do you think designs, builds, maintains, and services these airplanes? Bonus depreciation was all about stimulating the sales of airplanes and expanding the market, which created jobs. And it did just that.
I personally think depreciation is government theft, particularly in high inflationary times. You buy an asset but then can't offset your profits by only a fraction of it per year. Meanwhile the future dollars you get back are worth less than those today.
For a 7 year property like an airplane, it has a noticeable effect. For 39 year real estate, it is a huge factor, you end up paying taxes on today money and getting only a fraction of the present value back over time, something like 30%, so you paid taxes on 70% of the value of the property for profit you didn't make.
IMO, all business property should be 100% expensed in the year you buy it. That's when it cost you money, so get the tax benefit then.
Either that, or the depreciation needs to have inflation escalators.
Mike C. Should/Could asset depreciation* as it pertains to taxes be the same as the treatment in GAAP? Could they be normalized without creating chaos? Should/Could assets be depreciated* based on actual market value instead of arbitrary schedules? I imagine this would create armies of certified appraisers for all sorts of business assets. This would, of course, affect the use of the tax code as a tool of congress. Not saying this is good or bad, just pointing it out. Interesting mental exercise to consider. *maybe "valuation" is a better term.
What Mike is saying makes sense, if you were to pay cash for the business asset, but in most cases it is actually financed. This creates a situation where you are able to minimize your tax exposure without spending the cash.
I use to be a “flat taxer” but the more I learn and understand about our tax code, the more I see how it is used as a carrot to lead the economy. It sounds good to just make it fair and simple, but the likely result would actually be stagnation.
As far as making it even more complex, especially tied to aircraft values, I don’t see the benefit, but again I am still learning.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 01 Feb 2024, 14:30 |
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Joined: 10/05/11 Posts: 9586 Post Likes: +6461 Company: Power/mation Location: Milwaukee, WI (KMKE)
Aircraft: 1963 Debonair B33
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Username Protected wrote: GAAP is bad enough as is. It should NEVER become part of the tax code. Right. It's much better to have one set of books used to value your company for shareholders and another set to value it for the government!
_________________ Be Nice
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 01 Feb 2024, 15:56 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23623 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: What Mike is saying makes sense, if you were to pay cash for the business asset, but in most cases it is actually financed. This creates a situation where you are able to minimize your tax exposure without spending the cash. Borrowing money doesn't fix the lack of proper value accounting in the tax code, you still only get back a fraction of what it cost you, which means you paid taxes on profits you didn't actually make. Your theory is the one put forth by bankers to somehow convince people they make money by borrowing it. It isn't true. If you truly work out the total economic impact with a proper inflation figure, you will see that depreciation never returns you the full offset of the investment even if you borrow the money. The tax code essentially taxes companies who invest in capital equipment or real estate. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 01 Feb 2024, 16:06 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23623 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Should/Could asset depreciation* as it pertains to taxes be the same as the treatment in GAAP? The simplest thing is this: tax actual cash profits, the difference between revenue and expense. If you buy a $1 M machine, and pay cash, it comes off your taxes as an expense. You pay taxes on your remaining profits (or carry forward losses). If you buy a $ 1M machine with a loan, the down payment comes off the first year, the loan payments come off over the loan term. If you sell it later, the sale price counts as revenue in the business. Whatever market value it has lost or gained is taxed at this point. If the property becomes worthless, then you got $0 for it and thus no tax on that revenue. This is the only actually fair way to do it. You get taxed on the actual money you made, and your net gain or loss, and property lifetime, are set by the actual events around using the property. 100% bonus deprecation does this for aircraft. 100% goes off the year you buy, the year you sell you have gain. This would stop penalizing companies from investing in capital equipment like the current tax code does. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 01 Feb 2024, 16:39 |
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Joined: 03/01/17 Posts: 1060 Post Likes: +630 Location: CA
Aircraft: V35, C150
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Username Protected wrote: Should/Could asset depreciation* as it pertains to taxes be the same as the treatment in GAAP? Could they be normalized without creating chaos?
Should/Could assets be depreciated* based on actual market value instead of arbitrary schedules? I imagine this would create armies of certified appraisers for all sorts of business assets.
This would, of course, affect the use of the tax code as a tool of congress. Not saying this is good or bad, just pointing it out.
Interesting mental exercise to consider.
*maybe "valuation" is a better term.
My personal thoughts to this exercise: 1) If income taxes followed a strict GAAP practice, then a business would be taxed on uncollected receivables since those sales are posted as revenue (Maybe the tax form would need a box to subtract this). I suspect this is a big reason why many companies file on cash basis. 2) market value would be tough. Accounting departments like formulaic approaches like straight line or double declining.
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 04 Feb 2024, 02:15 |
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Joined: 03/09/13 Posts: 911 Post Likes: +449 Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
Aircraft: CE525,PA31
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Depending on your business and objectives, a 100% depreciation of any asset would make for a very bad balance sheet. Obviously an issue for financing and/or selling a company.
Andrew
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Post subject: Re: 100% Bonus Depreciation Posted: 04 Feb 2024, 10:01 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23623 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Depending on your business and objectives, a 100% depreciation of any asset would make for a very bad balance sheet. Obviously an issue for financing and/or selling a company. How so? You own the asset 100% so its value appears on your balance sheet as a positive. You would rather pay taxes on profits you aren't going to make? Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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