What about recurrent training? What do most pay each year?

Weird. It sits in the engines for years, why would it expire in a container?


Looked it up, 10 years in quarts is the recommended storage limit for Mobil Jet 254. I'm good with that and I will use all 48 quarts before that time expires.

Mike C.

No, I expect 120 hours will be more typical, but I don't really know. Varies with project mix and client distance. The jet was bought to open up a larger client radius. Business may develop that way, or it might not.

One of the reasons I avoided a Williams powered airplane (which was my first target) is they have a 150 hour minimum on the engine program. If I fly 85 hours, my engine program payments would have 65 hours I have to pay for that I am not using, which stings.

With the JT15D, I can fly more or less and my engine costs scale with usage. As you can see from my expenses, they also scale with usage for the most part (being mostly fuel), so I have a relatively small fixed cost profile. Thus the plane isn't a burden if I end up flying it less, and when I fly it more, then it costs more, but I get more value.

Mike C.

56.

Average leg 1.5 hours. Slight increase from 2022 due to some longer flights.

Mike C.

Not really per mile.

My MU2 was about $750/hour with a block speed of about 260 knots. Works out to just under $3/nm. This was also years ago, so one should apply some inflation to the numbers.

My Citation this past year ran $3.24/nm, so not far off. For the extra speed and payload, that's a deal. Also, be aware that a jet is less affected by headwind and weather, so it is more advantageous than a direct comparison would suggest.

2022 was about $3.60/nm, which had higher maintenance costs. So that gives some feeling for the year to year variation.

But...

This year is a light year due to very limited maintenance. 2024 figures to be even lighter, but 2025 will be more with phase 5 coming due. But I did have the AOG event and the 10,000 hour inspections, so it wasn't that light.

Mike C.

My recurrent costs for 2023 were $0.

In 2022 I bought a 2 recurrent package for $12800 from Flightsafety. I actually start the second one tomorrow, used the first one late 2022.

I spend less than my MU2 on training because I do it once per year rather than twice. The MU2 felt like I needed it every 6 months. The Citation doesn't feel like that.

Mike C.

Eastman 2380 has a shelf life of 4 years in quart cans per Eastman website.

https://www.eastman.com/Brands/EAS/Reso ... -Life.aspx

There are plenty of turbine engines with 2380 older than 4 years in them.

Mobil Jet 254 is 10 years.

They also say Skydrol is 10 years, but Citations are flying around with fluid a lot older than that.

I still don't understand why the shelf life would be less than the service life once put in an engine or system.

Mike C.

Could it be a limitation of the container, and not the oil itself? Skydrol in particular eats a lot of stuff. Perhaps there's a sealant or some other thing in the container that breaks down over time?

I still wonder why we're using metal oil cans from the 1950s instead of the modern plastic containers with the handy built-in neck to be able to pour from the container to the engine. As it is I'm dealing with church keys and funnels while piston owners just unscrew the cap and dump it in. Yes, I don't add oil as often as I did in the piston but it's still a hassle.

Could it be a limitation of the container, and not the oil itself? Skydrol in particular eats a lot of stuff. Perhaps there's a sealant or some other thing in the container that breaks down over time?

I still wonder why we're using metal oil cans from the 1950s instead of the modern plastic containers with the handy built-in neck to be able to pour from the container to the engine. As it is I'm dealing with church keys and funnels while piston owners just unscrew the cap and dump it in. Yes, I don't add oil as often as I did in the piston but it's still a hassle.

MC, good on you for posting your ownership experience yet again. I am not a contender for a Citation V this day or tomorrow, but interesting nevertheless.

Curious about your insurance, yours is a lot lower than mine. What type of hull value do you have? And how much liability?

Premium: $15,054
Hull loss: $900K
Liability: $3M with $250K seat sublimit

I am underinsured by a lot in today's market, and I will try to increase it next renewal. I expect the market value will drop, too. There seems to be a magic line about $1M where hull premiums jump up, so I'll see what that does. In a total situation, I do get back about what I have in it, so there's that. I couldn't replace it for the insured value, that is for sure.

That level of liability with sublimit is not common. The vast majority of my passengers are employees (covered by workmen's compensation when on company business) and family. So I am mostly worried about liability outside the cabin, say when I run into a G-V. In that case, the sublimit doesn't apply and I have $3M.

Truthfully, there is no liability insurance level I can buy that would provide adequate protection. Thus I buy a little bit to help in some cases but almost all aircraft operators are underinsured for liability.

Mike C.

Indiana is a different insurance market than California, too.

I find that difficult to believe.

What if tommorrow you told your underwriter that you've decided to move your "base" from Cali to say, Indiana, would your premium go down 30% ?

Taxes can certainly vary. IN doesn't tax insurance premiums, KY does, so when I moved my plane to KY, I had to pay more.

Beyond taxes, CA premiums may be more due to various law differences and the higher cost of fixing planes there.

I don't know if we can collect enough data to know, but I suspect home base does affect premiums to some degree.

If I moved my plane to Alaska, my premiums would go up for sure!

Mike C.