Russ you left out the green.

Russ you left out the green.

5. Darwin candidate

This scenario is still a little confusing. Why would ANYONE allow a prebuy without a signed contract in place FIRST. Hindsight is always 20/20 but I am not sure of the wisdom of allowing unauthorized or unapproved mechanic/shop (via a contract) to start removing panels, equipment, examining logs, etc. This is a scenario just asking for problems.

Generally, aircraft are not overly complicated to purchase as long as the seller is up front with information and not misrepresenting the aircraft (not indicating that anyone here isn't - just an observation). Attorneys are looking out for the interests of their clients. That is their job. As an example, it may be advantageous for the sale to take place in another state due to taxes or there may be other financial advantages to the buyer moving the aircraft to a different location prior to Closing. Normally, these are not deal-killer issues if discussed and negotiated up front. Non-negotiable terms such as "as is, where is" make the purchase more expensive to the buyer and they have to figure that into their analysis - as does their attorney.

Sellers want someone to fly in, write and check and fly out with minimal checks or inspections. However, buyers are not purchasing a bag of chips. They are buying a fairly expensive asset with a number of moving parts, interconnected electrical components and materials that undergo stresses on each trip. Generally, this is a "trust but verify" environment and the contract holds both parties accountable if negotiated properly.

The reason issues wind up in court vary but typically someone (buyer or seller) did not adhere to the contract which is legally binding - and these issues could be addressed through arbitration too if properly negotiated. Some items are non-negotiable. That is fine. It is better to highlight those issues up front than say when the aircraft is in the middle of prebuy when the level of expenses is much lower on both sides.

Good luck.

I almost had one, buyer wouldn't agree on a price, I pointed out hot section due on one of the engines, and some other maintenance that was imminent. He wouldn't sign the purchase agreement- emotional attachment? who knows

He said tell me the real offer when you come up with one (rejecting my $600k~ offer), I'll get those items fixed.....so he did the hot section, $185k later, he was crying.....now the $620k plane would go for no less than $700k.....so I of course I was walking from this one, now he was due for phase, since he had wasted so much time, in phase his left wing started leaking, all fuel bladders needed replacing, $40k later.....he thought the plane was surely worth $740k

It never ended, and I moved on

he ended up listing with a broker, and I'm pretty sure it sold for around $600k- I saw the plane in a shop a year later, all torn apart, both starter gens needed replacing, the list was long- I was happy I avoided it

Everybody wants the "turn key, no squawks, good times" airplane and they will pay a premium for it.

But the issue is that those airplanes often have issues that come up just like the planes of lower price.

In my case, I am willing to accept an airplane that has things that need to be fixed and then I can control what gets fixed and how. I prefer not having a seller "fix for sale" since that means always choosing the cheapest option to make it barely airworthy. I'd rather have the option to address the issue with a long term fix.

As long as the price is commensurate with the condition, then I'm okay having to fix things.

One advantage to the lower price is lower sales taxes, lower property taxes, and lower hull insurance.

I've seen several cases of supposedly "prime" airplanes that ended up in the shop with big issues. Those don't sting as much if you paid less and have more funds for the repair. BTW, repair parts and labor don't get sales tax (at least for my situation).

In this regard, an airplane that is higher time, like mine, but flown regularly all its life, is sometimes a better choice than some super low time plane that spends a lot of time sitting. Regular use keeps planes healthy.

Mike C.

Good point Mike

My observation was that airplanes listed for sale often times had healthy maintenance reserves accounts set aside, that is to say, they knew they had high dollar items deferred or upcoming, and wanted to sell the plane and pocket those reserves. My goal was to make sure those items were handled, or priced in....this often led to a standoff with the owner of who would blink first

So lame, and such a frustrating process- glad that I do not have to transact airplanes often, my hat goes off to those of you that do this frequently

So I have purchased exactly 1 airplane in my life and it was done without a pre-buy, from Tarver. I did speak to a few people that had purchased planes from him to get a feel for how he operates, whether he stands behind his products, etc. I did go and check out the plane but being new to turbines I didn't really know what I was looking for. But the plane was flying regularly and in the previous year had a bunch of inspections done.

I did end up having 2 issues that had to be fixed. One of them (bad o rings in the fuel system) would not have turned up in a pre-buy so I just had to eat that one. The other (windshield bleed air system was inop) likely would have turned up in a pre-buy but the cost was minimal. I purchased the plane for a good price so I was ready to absorb some costs to get it just the way I like it.

On my next plane I will know a lot more (I help my mechanic with everything on my plane) and will crawl through it myself thoroughly. I will also have the engines borescoped just for peace of mind. If I end up moving towards an SII I will have the TKS panels thoroughly inspected for corrosion. But otherwise I'm getting a pretty good feel for how these things work.

Here's my take away from this.

A seller sold you a plane he knew, or should have known, had this issue and he didn't disclose it to you. An inop windshield de-icing problem on a jet is not a minor issue, even if the repair cost is minimal. This seller advocates not needing pre buys. Oh the irony.

You choosing not to do a pre buy on an airplane makes you a gambler. Plain and simple.

Now gambling is fine. It can be fun. Exciting. But it's still gambling. And like other forms, sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose.

The seller is always the house, because they have more info than you. And if you gamble enough as a buyer, you're unlikely to beat the house. Though gamblers love to tell you how they beat the house. Rarely mentioning how the house beat them. And worse.

To each their own.

I’ve got a “quiet sale” ongoing for one of my planes, and have insisted the buyer have his representative conduct a pre-purchase inspection.

The plane is a very, very nice example of the type, and I inspected it myself pre-purchase, and quite accurately assessed it.

Having said that, my credibility in a sale is more important than any amount of money. Thus, my insistence on a pre-purchase by the buyer’s independent inspection.

Unfortunately, this insistence on my part has added to the delay and complication of the transaction to the point where it’s probably dead.

Such is life…

I sold airplanes for stocking aircraft dealers for 15 years prior to switching to the buyer’s side. We always went out of our way to avoid prebuys… but I believe you are right, as a seller you should actually encourage a prebuy, then the responsibility of what condition the aircraft is in shifts from the seller to the buyer and their maintenance facility!

That is not always true. It is often not true when buying from an estate.

That is not always true. It is often not true when buying from an estate.

There is risk in any of these transactions. Pre-buys miss things, sometimes big things. Examples of this are right here in this thread. In my case, the cost of the repair was less than what I would have paid for the pre-buy. Plus the selling price was very fair. So while I was taking some risk, I had some buffer in my budget and accepted the risk. Was I lucky? Yes. But I was as much buying into an ecosystem as buying a single airplane. I was confident that if something was really wrong that Tarver would work hard to make it right. In fact, one of his customers that I interviewed told me as much. After purchase they had some kind of engine issue and Tarver made it right. That was good enough for me.

A good prebuy has a lot of areas opened, closed, possibly filters removed for inspection, cowls, spark plugs, compressions etc.

How many times in reviewing a set of logbooks has anyone seen a log entry for any prebuy or removal reinstallation work during the prebuy that was done?