BeechTalk brain-trust... your input is requested.

Currently I am flying a 2017 TBM910, which was purchased new. I love the TBM. It is easy to fly, fast, very reasonable operating cost for what you are getting, reliable, and has held its value (maybe even appreciated??)

My family is continuing to grow, and we are needing/wanting more seats. I'm trying to figure out what other possibilities exist for my mission.

Typical mission is:
<1200 miles
single pilot
will fly ~150 hrs/ year
<8 people ( several are children now, but they seem to be getting bigger )

I know there are options, but each of them has their own drawbacks it seems.
- The P180 Avanti is a sweet ride no doubt. Crazy performance for the price. I am concerned about the state of the company though and what it could mean for parts/service, holding value, training, etc.

- The PC12 would certainly fit the bill, but it hard to feel good about spending an exta $2MM for 2 seats and a potty that flies slower. Also it is Proline. I have 15 years of experience with G1000 and am somewhat intimidated by the switch.

-Beechcraft Denali- still not to market after its lengthy development and likely wont improve on the PC12 for cost (initial or operating) or speed. It will be Garmin, so that is a plus. Also training and service will be there. But I'm not a huge fan of buying the first year model of anything (Hondajet, anybody?).

That brings me to the jets, because who is really buying a newish Kingair these days?
Phenom 300, CJ3+ or 4, maybe even the PC24 would be on the table.
Everyone dreams of flying a jet, but it will be a MUCH larger up front investment (maybe ok if it holds value), and I cannot get excited about spending 4x more on operating cost than I currently do with the TBM. Also insurance will be exorbitant.

What would you do?

I think you need to look at your missions and do a better analysis.
Divide them into three categories and see where you spend you most time in.
<350
350-750
<750
Or come up with your own set of categories.

If more than 70% of your trips are under 750, then I think the obvious choice is the PC12 or Denali. (I would pick the Denali, but you might have to wait a few years...)
It won't be as fast as a TBM, but the per seat costs are probably pretty close. And maybe you add and average of 20-40 minutes to your comparable trips.

It would be an expensive to fly a jet when most of your trips would not make any meaningful time advantages. AND of course, there is the whole challenge of single pilot insurance these days....

Of course, if money was no object than you should get them both....

My most common trip is NQA to APF. 700 miles. With no wind its ~2:15 min flight. The TBM will fly 315kts any day, weight, or temp. In the winter flying west, 50kts headwind is not uncommon, so a 2:40 min trip. A Pilatus is going to push that well over 3 hours. Granted, I get a potty, but not sure how much that helps me as a single pilot...

I have never seen a proline PC12

Out of your choices the PC12 is by far the superior aircraft, having flown the TBM and some jets and other stuff, the build quality and all on the Pilatus is miles apart from the TBM as is the comfort.

I’d sooner fly 3hrs at 270kts in the 12 than 2:40 in the slightly faster TBM, most pax would also probably rather spend a little longer in the 12 comfort wise

Next step from a 12 would be a jet but that’s a whole nother topic, and I’d stay away from old cheap jets especially you’re not flying much and or are flying in weather, phenom 300E is nice minus the brakes, PC24 is great minus the lack of range for the $$


King air is a legacy airframe for those who fantasize about turbine engine failures, frankly it’s not really something I would consider

Can someone figure out away to block the word “Citation” from this thread?..

Here it comes you asked for it!!!

What is wrong with the Phenom 300 brakes ? Have you actually flown a 300 with BCU 10?

I have over 2200 hours in a Phenom 300 and they are by far the best brakes I have ever used, once you get used to them.

For the OP, don’t make a decision based on this myth. There may be economics reasons to not go with the 300, but the brakes shouldn’t be part of the decision process.

Brad

C-441 if you can find a good one...

What is wrong with the Phenom 300 brakes ? Have you actually flown a 300 with BCU 10?

I have over 2200 hours in a Phenom 300 and they are by far the best brakes I have ever used, once you get used to them.

For the OP, don’t make a decision based on this myth. There may be economics reasons to not go with the 300, but the brakes shouldn’t be part of the decision process.

Brad

Get a Piaggio. Go faster and higher with a better ride, less noise, not much more fuel, engines you are familiar with and a cabin that makes a pc24 seem like a clown car.

Ignore the naysayers. I can do 700 nm into a 100kt headwind and almost beat your tbm in still air. It’s a remarkable plane. I never understood why Socata didn’t buy them. Such an ideal TBM step up. People who buy TBMs don’t want to go slower.

What about an Epic?

I think the PC12 is the right choice. And as the number of seats increase, at some point the single point failure of a single pilot starts to weigh in. Carrying that many souls start thinking 2 pilot. I think every sane person would say carrying 500 people is a multi pilot job regardless of plane certification. 1 pax, most would agree with single pilot. Somewhere in between there is a compromise. The Denali once available helps single pilot concerns with better systems (ESP, level mode, autoland etc). CJ3-+ is a pretty sweet G3000 plane, but will need a serious commitment to flying, training, and might be a little tough to stay proficient at 150 TBM hours, which is prob 120 CJ3 hours. For me the PC12 or Denali would be my upgrade path for seats. If I add another 0 to my income, would think about a CJ3+. Same avionics and one more lever, looks pretty straightforward. But pricey and things happen faster.

B200 with -52s and G1000Nxi. A bit faster than PC12, a bit slower than TBM. But tons of airframes out there and you can mod one however you like.

Yes, OPEX will be higher with fuel burn, but…

B200s have 6.5 psid v 200 with 6.1. This easily gets you in to the low 30s with decent cabin alt.

PC12 is nice, but parts and support for B200 is way better.

How much do you want to spend?

I wouldn't worry about a change to a new avionics system. PL21 is very powerful and not hard to learn. Honeywell in the PC12 the same. You're going to a bigger plane with more systems anyway so you'll have to train.

With that many people I think you're looking at PC12, or KA 300 series in turbo props. The Denali still doesn't exist and even if the wait isn't long there will be teething pains.

In jets you've already picked the options unless you want to move down to legacy jets where there are all kinds of options.

I think you need to decide what's most important: cabin space, speed, capex, opex or does budget not matter. If budget is no concern you could move to a mid size jet and two crew.

120 hours a year in a jet, or turbo prop isn't a lot. I'd sure think really hard about a second pilot with that many important people on board. If that's part of the plan then you really need to think about pilot experience availability. That puts another check mark in the CJ, King Air and PC 12 column.

A number of us are obviously not concerned about the Piaggio issues you raise. The concerns you bring up haven't really been a problem for everyone here but one. And that person's experience seems to be an outlier. In terms of capability for your mission it does it all either better, faster and potentially cheaper than the other turbo prop options and most of the jets except in people hauling capability. The downside to the P180 is 8 people is a lot for both bodies and baggage on a regular basis. To make it work you're putting someone up front and three people on the couch and jump seat. Non starter in my opinion.

Someone raises the King Air 200 series. Too small for 8 people IMO. Some will object to the type requirements of the 300 series but you need to perform to that standard in the jets and P180 in sim training for insurance (probably the others too but I don't know) so it's really a non issue IMO.

If I was making the choice, based on your mission requirements (you don't say what your experience and time is) I'd lean heavily to the PC12: cabin is nice than the other options for the seats required, fairly straightforward single pilot, lots of trained pro pilots, holds capex value demonstrably better than any of the other option and reasonable opex. The only negative from my perspective is speed. But for the trips of 700 miles and shorter its not a big time deal. The biggest issue with all the turbo props except the KA 300 series and P180 is altitude capability. I have found that to be a very big deal moving from a TBM to the P180.

When it comes to the PC-12, it's not just a people-mover; it's a cargo-hauler too! With a growing family, the baggage grows exponentially. When they turn into teens, they start brining friends. While a 12 is slower than your TBM, you'll appreciate having that extra room for all their gear.

If the budget allows and with the growing family, timing could be right to scratch the jet itch. Assuming the budget is there, the worst thing is that if it’s not working out you could have to sell it in a few years. One does have to enjoy the ownership experience of taking training and aircraft management to a new level above the TBM. If you don’t think you will enjoy the experience or don’t have the time to dedicate, then a jet isn’t right for you. There are ways to offload the management time but it will cost more. I’d be happy to chat if you thought you are interested in going the jet/PC-24 route.

With a jet or PC-12, the fixed costs increase and with only 150 hours per year the fixed costs are a substantial part of the overall expenses. Have you thought about sharing expenses with a partner or a dry lease? With that level of aircraft, finding the right partner is difficult and not ideal, but it could give you a big savings.

I agree with Tony in that avionics isn’t a big deal, but there are a lot of Legacy PC12s (pre serial number 1000) that have been Garminized.

Piper Cheyenne 400LS!

Chip-