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29 Apr 2024, 05:11 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2023, 20:48 
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Joined: 08/16/15
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Location: Ogden UT
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I think there was a "how it's made" on making turbine blades. Was quite a process. And there are a bunch of them in an engine. Spinning 37,000 rpm at 800 C, those are some crazy exotic parts.

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Chuck Ivester
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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2023, 21:26 
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Joined: 11/07/11
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Location: KBED, KCRE
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Definitely. I remember the green dye vividly.

Chip-


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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2023, 22:22 
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Joined: 11/19/15
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Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II
I have been following the Hill helicopter videos and they are making their own Turbin engine and even their own blades. It’s been an interesting process to make the blades. They print the mold then cast the actual blade. They seem to think they have it figured out.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2023, 23:31 
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Joined: 05/05/09
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Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
Username Protected wrote:
I have been following the Hill helicopter videos and they are making their own Turbin engine and even their own blades. It’s been an interesting process to make the blades. They print the mold then cast the actual blade. They seem to think they have it figured out.

Mike


I’ll stick with my boring R66 until they get some hours on these. Otherwise it’s beautiful and I want one!


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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 02:12 
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Joined: 11/19/15
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Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II
I agree. I think Hill with have some serious growing pains and technical challenges. I have yet to see a new start up bite off this much and do well. So ambitious out if the gate.

But yes I want one also. Haha

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 08:53 
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I agree. I think Hill with have some serious growing pains and technical challenges. I have yet to see a new start up bite off this much and do well. So ambitious out if the gate.

But yes I want one also. Haha

Mike


It really reminds me of a helicopter Eclipse jet; the exact same attempt to reinvent the wheel on all facets of the machine. Why not just go with a proven Rolls-Royce engine and Garmin Avionics? But it’s so cool that you are rooting for them to succeed, even though you know that it is an impossible thing to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 12:48 
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Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 1318
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Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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It really reminds me of a helicopter Eclipse jet; the exact same attempt to reinvent the wheel on all facets of the machine. Why not just go with a proven Rolls-Royce engine and Garmin Avionics? But it’s so cool that you are rooting for them to succeed, even though you know that it is an impossible thing to do.

+100. I know the world needs dreamers but people need to learn from the successes and failures of others. They are trying to do too much and are going to go down in flames. Sucks as there is a lot of good there. I really like the small electric motors on the wheels to assist with parking. Genius.


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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 14:28 
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Joined: 08/07/08
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Location: Fort Worth, TX (KFTW)
Aircraft: B200, ex 58P
Some things can't be improved.

No one has recently made the wheel any rounder.


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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 15:01 
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Joined: 08/05/16
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Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
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I agree. I think Hill with have some serious growing pains and technical challenges. I have yet to see a new start up bite off this much and do well. So ambitious out if the gate.

But yes I want one also. Haha

Mike


It really reminds me of a helicopter Eclipse jet; the exact same attempt to reinvent the wheel on all facets of the machine. Why not just go with a proven Rolls-Royce engine and Garmin Avionics? But it’s so cool that you are rooting for them to succeed, even though you know that it is an impossible thing to do.


There’s still the possibility even today that a very smart person with enough energy and money can change things. Look at Koenegsegg.

I think even in large projects you’re really relying on a handful of heroes and a lot of worker bees. Lose those heroes and everything falls apart. Ex Safran Silvercrest.

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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 15:15 
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Joined: 11/30/12
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There’s still the possibility even today that a very smart person with enough energy and money can change things. Look at Koenegsegg.

You don't even have to look that far. I remember when Williams was a plucky upstart engine maker ready to challenge the whole industry by being the first to make an efficient engine that was the right size for Cessna's new CJ line.

They were successful, and now people complain about them being the 800 lb gorilla.

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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 15:42 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Username Protected wrote:
There’s still the possibility even today that a very smart person with enough energy and money can change things. Look at Koenegsegg.

You don't even have to look that far. I remember when Williams was a plucky upstart engine maker ready to challenge the whole industry by being the first to make an efficient engine that was the right size for Cessna's new CJ line.

They were successful, and now people complain about them being the 800 lb gorilla.


I didn’t realize they were a plucky upstart, I thought they were a major defense contractor who made billions building engines for cruise missiles and then took that knowledge and experience and applied it to general aviation?
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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 17:40 
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Company: Citation Jet Exchange
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Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
I'm told that's why they went with William-Rolls at first, to gain some credibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 18:27 
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Joined: 11/30/12
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I didn’t realize they were a plucky upstart, I thought they were a major defense contractor who made billions building engines for cruise missiles and then took that knowledge and experience and applied it to general aviation?

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!

The news stories I read at the time were very pro-Williams and painted them in a David vs Goliath way. I imagine Williams' PR dept was busy writing those stories.

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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 19:04 
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Joined: 08/05/16
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Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
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Username Protected wrote:
There’s still the possibility even today that a very smart person with enough energy and money can change things. Look at Koenegsegg.

You don't even have to look that far. I remember when Williams was a plucky upstart engine maker ready to challenge the whole industry by being the first to make an efficient engine that was the right size for Cessna's new CJ line.

They were successful, and now people complain about them being the 800 lb gorilla.


I suppose you could say that about most companies, but making boat engines from Chrysler jet car IP and then getting a contract for the then new field of cruise engines seems more like being at the right place and right time. There was no reason to create a small turbine until the car application, or boats, neither of which made sense. Tiny bizjets became a thing and Williams entered the market later.

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 Post subject: Re: Legacy Citation vs Turboprop
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2023, 21:03 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I have been following the Hill helicopter videos and they are making their own Turbin engine

There are a lot of potential applications for a low cost 300 HP class turbine engine.

Maybe they should concentrate on that first.

Mike C.

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