Any real world operators able to chime in on this?

One person told me offhand a p300 flying 200 hours per year is around 500k all in. So 2500/hr. (this is all owner flown).

I have been also told the CJ2/3 lineup are more like 1500-1800 per hour.

Would love real feedback for anyone who has run either one.

I don’t know a 100 from a 300, but a 100 owner posted on COPA:

Direct expenses $1200
Total Annual $1800

Not including capital costs, and based on 150hrs

I've been flying the CJ2 since I was 20 years old, we currently manage 8 citations including a CJ2, CJ2+, CJ3. The engine programs are nearly the same between those 3, fuel burns are a little less on the 2+ and you gain a few knots, and just a few more GPH on the CJ3. Maintenance costs are very similar across the board. We block 140GPH in the CJ2 although we can get that down to as little as 115GPH on long and high trips. I see 400KTAS nearly every day, at all altitudes up to 43,000, 45,000 too if the conditions are right.

I tailored this chart towards the owner operator, although insurance will likely be significantly higher if it's a novice jet pilot. Hangar will vary on your location +/-. Maintenance varies yearly depending on where it falls in the cycle, every 3rd year with the Doc 10 will be expensive, but $55,000 at a service center has been a good average for us including the items that break in between.

Citation Jet Exchange
Total Operating Costs CJ2

Insurance(1) $30,000
Maintenance Tracking $4,000
Navigation +Weath.Subscription: $3,000
Recurrent Training for 1 pilots (3) $9,000
Twice annual wash & wax $2,500
Hangar at Spirit Airport (4) $36,000
Cleaning Supplies/Snacks XXX
Management Fee: XXX
Fixed Costs $84,500

Part Time Crew XXX
Taxes XXX
Hotel, Meals, Rental(6) Actual
Crew Costs $0

200 Hours Fuel ($5.50/gal)(7) $154,500
200 Hours Engine Insurance (2) $78,000
Annual Flight Costs $232,500

Estimated Maintenance Costs(8) $55,000

Estimated Annual Budget
$372,000 $1,860/HR ALL IN

1 Based on $2.5M hull value, Liability TBD.
2 150 hour minimum commitment via Williams engine manufacturer “program”.
3 Initial training may be required at time of purchase or to replace pilot ($10-16k)
(a) Depending on other managed aircraft cost may be less.
4 Average at Spirit, shared community hangar. Downtown less expensive.
7 Average costs based on local base price and contract fuel savings. Current rate $4/gal
8. Average to include repairs, scheduled inspections and unscheduled. Varies with programs.
(a) Range from $30,000 to $80,000 based on annual usage and inspections due.



If you'd like to hire a knowledgeable and experienced broker on the CJ, Mustang, or Excel series please PM me.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

Well that just shut down the conversation

Have to pay to play.

Reading a recent thread on COPA, and a fella there with a P300 that tracked all his costs with nothing unexpected, said 444K for 207 hours all in. Not counting capital or depreciation.

Or be involved.

I'm doing a lot better than these numbers despite using more fuel in my V, but I'm very involved in the care of the airplane. If you take the plane to a factory service center and hand them a blank check, it will cost you a lot.

A 172 would cost a lot more to operate if you took it to a Textron service center, too.

I find the cost of operating an airplane seems to be more sensitive to the ecosystem around it than the actual type it is.

Mike C.

Respectfully, Mike tends to lead people to believe the costs of owning a jet are much less than practical for most people. A sub $1M, legacy V is not an apples to apples comparison to a CJ2, or CJ3 costing $3M-6M. Sure, there's room especially on maintenance to save costs IF you're heavily involved AND have a mechanic willing to play ball. A $40/hr mechanic in rural KY is not accessible to most people, nor would I want a $40/hr mechanic working on my jets.

Insurance: For a $2.5M airplane you aren't going to do any better, any plane that value would cost about the same.

Maintenance tracking: Price is for Traxxall, after 8 years with them I find their product to be the best, at 33% less than Cescom. Traxxall can be accessed by service centers and Textron. SierraTrax is around $1k, but a little less robust.

Navigation and Weather subscription: Can't do any cheaper, especially if you are with Garmin. Proline costs around $6k and universal $4k. WX is around $1k.

Recurrent training: Price at a sim center. Sure, you can do it in the plane, I don't recommend this to owner pilots. Still it will cost you $5-6k all in, some outfits are actually more than sim centers.

Hangar: Varies highly depending on location

Fuel: I quoted an average to be realistic, if you stick with CAA and have a good base price you can save significantly

Engine programs: On Williams this is a wash. Pay now, or pay later. I have the numbers for an HSI and OH on a CJ3, they come out to within a few percent being on programs, either way Williams wins. Their customer service is phenomenal however.

Maintenance: This is an average, some years can be far less, some far more. 200 hours is a decent amount of flying so you're bound to run into some unexpected issues in between. We use West Star for 80% of our work, supplemented by local repair stations, occasional other big name shops, and occasionally Textron. The fixed "in the door" prices are nearly identical anywhere you go. There aren't many shortcuts to X amount of hours for inspections. The local shop rates will vary along with their reputation for how thorough they are. I have a great relationship with West Star and occasionally find parts from third parties or o/h exchange parts that save the owners significant money.

A legacy citation would likely get raked over at Textron or these top tier shops. The 525, 510, and Excel is actually not bad if maintenance has been kept up with , even at the factory.

We've ran into cases where a department does most of their mx in house, and at the first major maintenance event we have to play serious catch up on missed/deferred items. I certainly take into account the past 3 years of mx history when considering a jet for a client, and have advised that we pass on various planes if the maintenance appears too light by no-name shops.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

Mike C is a very involved owner, a pilot, and a wicked smart dude. We don’t always agree and sometimes I end up with a free education.

Yes, His numbers may seem low to the normal owner operators but you can sometimes trade time for money. Mike C is not your average owner but, like the other Mike C (CSOB), you can trade a little time and might save some $$ and learn a thing or two. Not every owner wants to do that.

I find parts, sometimes just serviceable cores, for friends’ aircraft and aircraft I operate and sometimes even BTers. It’s a challenge sometimes and I enjoy the experience plus it’s nice to get to know people. Occasionally I get a ride in the right seat or sometimes a hat. Other times I know I saved someone a few hundred or a few thousand.

I have found some parts like that, where someone doesn’t need them and they are still of value, even as a core. The owner buys them, still gets the paper trail that is needed, but saves $$ over new.

Today I had someone ask me about finding a headset. They sell on BT way too quick. I had one Zulu 2 used that needed a plastic part because the plasticizer wasn’t happy anymore and told them to hand it back to me when they go to the airlines.

I have insight on a CJ3’s maintenance costs. Averages $50k per year. Blows my mind. Seems way too cheap for a jet, but it’s accurate and based on over 15 years of operating data. Exclusively Citation Service Center maintained, too.

Usually, people think the V is going to cost more to maintain, but I have found the opposite. Plenty of parts out there for it.


My mechanic shop rate is $110/hour.

Maintains a number of Citations and CJs.

My working relationship with them allows me to buy parts and I am very involved in the decisions about maintenance. This is the key. This is how replacing a RH hydraulic pump is $1800 for me, and would be $36,000 at Textron service center. Or how I got an ACM overhauled for $14K all in instead of $50-70K. Finding good used parts, bypassing the middlemen, buying parts at discount, all help to lower costs significantly.


ST for me, JSSI bought them and raised prices a bit.

Considering the mistakes I've had to correct on the CESCOM/CAMP report when I bought the plane, the service is less important than the diligence of those who enter the data.


My Garmin data package is $850/year. SXM is $60/mo. That's it for me.


Flightsafety for me so far, $6400 for 61.58 SPE sim course.


$720/month, valet service.


I'm a diligent shopper for fuel. CAA wins a lot of the time, Everest other times. My average lately has been in the low $4 range. I optimize fuel loads to buy more at cheaper places and less at expensive ones, the V range allows this.


You end up paying $2M over a TBO cycle with a pair of Williams. At that price, their service had better be awesome.

You also sell your soul to them since they can, and have, raised the rate much more than inflation. They also impose minimums and other rules that are customer hostile. Every 5 years the contract terms migrate inexorably in their favor.

My JT15D are under my control, no program. I take the risk, but I can dramatically lower my engine costs that way.


High dollar shop. I've seen some of the invoices. Oh my.


Based on the LONG list of problems I found on my plane that was EXCLUSIVELY maintained at Textron service centers since new before I bought it, my local shop and I have my plane in far better shape for a lot less money.


Like one spot of paint flecked off a gear leg and you are into 6 figures to repair it. Textron tries to make the plane new again and that is just inappropriate.


The money for reputation tactic.

All I know is that my plane had numerous things wrong with it that was done at the Textron service center. For example, the ignitor leads on the right engine were the wrong part number (for the pin style instead of the button style ignitors). That's a really bone head mistake. Now fixed. I have several dozen such examples.

My point is this: you can't answer the cost of operation question until you understand the environment the airplane will be operated in. If you are totally hands off, blank check, service center kind of guy, it will cost you WAY more than it costs me. That's just fact.

Mike C.

It is much easier to keep a 2, 5, 10, 20 year old Citation running "like" new than a 30-40 year old legacy citation.

Mike, You've seen invoices from West Star? But you don't have ACTUAL experience with them. I wouldn't recommend them either for a legacy citation, however for the 525, 510, XL I can't recommend them highly enough. I've actually seen the invoices, to the tune of 80+ over the last few years, and worked directly with them in approving the work and saving money for my clients. No sticker shock, no "gotchas". Their prices aren't what you're going to pay at an off brand shop in KY, but they are good, fair, and can get the plane turned around often within 1 week.

Textron can be good to work with as well and even they offered us some flexibility in accomplishing tasks. Example: Nose strut on the M2 had some corrosion, new $32k, but they arranged it to be corrected at Yingling for $8k.

Some owners want their planes maintained like new, and I get it that not everyone does, and you don't need to give a service center a blank check to accomplish that goal, but some want it that way.

I represented our XL for a 4 year inspection and HSI at Duncan over the winter. I found their squawks to be on the knit picky side and fought back as appropriate. In the end, the bill was double what I told the owners to brace for, but after they reviewed the scope of the work there was not one objection to the bill between 3 owners. HSI and 826 of hours of work turned around in 3.5 weeks.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

My plane runs like new, I just don't get hit with petty squawks that drive up prices for things that don't matter.


I'm reviewing a phase 5 that took 3 months and the invoice is near $500K. That counts as sticker shock, slow, and many of the squawks are petty. The largest issue was supposed landing gear corrosion which any practical shop would have cleaned and primed, but this resulted in nearly $100K in gear work from Weststar. There was nothing seriously wrong with the plane, no other line item was over $20K. This did not include any engine work, either.


Exactly, knowledge of how to bypass the factory to find the people who do the real work saves tons of money.

For some reason, landing gear issues seem to be a favorite place for high end shops to make money. One little piece of paint that flecks off and voila, gear "corrosion". The plane in question is flying around on rented landing gear while theirs gets "fixed" so they have to swap it back at some point. Your example was a gear issue, too.


I want my plane to WORK like new, not be made arbitrarily new cosmetically. Big difference.

Case in point, Duncan sent a corrosion correction letter to Textron (which costs several $K) to fix a spot of corrosion on the bracket that holds the Freon AC hour meter. Give me a break.

On that phase 5, Weststar spent $7K on a letter from Textron about some minor fix. The big shops tend to engage Textron on every little deviation instead of using basic judgment.

The crap I've found on my plane from Textron is amazing. Using RTV to seal a leak in the pressurization controls to save replacing a $20 tee fitting. Who does that crap?


So you admit owners can't trust the high end shops to use good judgment and that owners need to be involved to not be taken.

The identical plane operated in two different environments can have radically different operating costs. I'm at one end, involved, local practical shop, finding inexpensive solutions without middlemen. The service center blank check call me when ready guy is at the other end. We can be $1000/hour different in the end, easily.

Mike C.

How does EEC compare to proparts/protech? Are there any efficiency bonuses or return for unused funds? Seems like you would have to account for gear overhaul on Phenom compared to CJ?

Corey covered the 525 cost well, the trick with considering Phenom operating cost is that you have to include the cost of the 10 year and gear inspections… we’re talking $200k and up! I’ve heard numbers near $400k for the early 100’s! Embraer says they are working to get these cost down, but when you compare Citations and Phenoms, it’s important to include them!

And for anyone reading this that is considering a 525 vs a 560, the 560 is more airplane and it cost more to operate. Period.

Can you put your thumb on the scale and then intentionally leave out real world cost such as engine reserves. Sure, but if you compare apples to apples the 525 series is always going to have a lower op cost.

I’m 100% in support of small shops and doing business locally. However, I’ve consistently found that the plane owners who prefer their local tech, working out of a pickup, to the point of avoiding authorized shops with the appropriate authorizations, training, standards, inspectors, and equipment are not the same folks you want to buy a plane from. Of course, correlation is not causation but if an owner won’t allow Cessna to look at a Cessna now and then, right there’s your sign you’re not going to like what you find.