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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 25 May 2023, 16:28 
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Agreed!

Lance Neibauer, the founder of Lancair is a friend of mine, the course of events that ended with Textron making the final fumble, is just astonishing.

Lance said he strongly encouraged Textron to keep the all of the composite production in Bend. They could have built the airframes and wings there and shipped them to Wichita for final assembly if they wanted. Someone at TXT missed the fact that climate control is essential when building composites. Whoever thought Mexico was a good idea needs their butt kicked. This is what happens when you make decisions by committee / bean counters.

The 400 is probably the best piston airplane ever built, it would see very well against Cirrus had it ever really been given a chance. Sure, do the chute just to take that advantage away, but the reality is the Cirrus has a chute because it needs it.

The other thing that would have been great is to move it from Utility Category to Normal Category and lighten it up about 500lbs!

At the end of the day, we all know that Textron would rather sell one Ascend than 100 Lancair Columbia 400 / Columbia 400 / Corvalis / TTx


Then put 300 of those newly found 500 lbs into a parachute...I think it is dumb, but it is a big decision maker for a lot of wives. I have heard from multiple guys that their wives didn't want to upgrade to a SETP because it didn't have a parachute like their SR22 did...pure insanity...

I agree on the piston aspect. Why would you want to try to sale more piston singles where you make 100k a piece, when you can sale more $15-20 million jets...


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 25 May 2023, 23:03 
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The turbine RDD LX7s cost the same as an SR22T. Why anyone would choose the latter over the former is astonishing.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 00:19 
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Username Protected wrote:

I have heard from multiple guys that their wives didn't want to upgrade to a SETP because it didn't have a parachute like their SR22 did...pure insanity...


Here is my take on that. I think a lot of guys sold the parachute to their wife so hard that when it came time to upgrade, they kind of shot themselves in the foot. Most people do not have an intrinsic fear of small planes. Of they have faith in the pilot, and that pilot’s judgment, then they have little concern for the flight. Myself, being driven more by data than emotion, never oversold my wife on the parachute. Don’t have to be a rocket scientist, to see that the parachute in the series has not resulted in an aircraft with above average safety. But there are plenty of reasons to own the Cirrus. I liked the speed, FIKI and comfort. I did know that if I ever crashed an aircraft, even if we landed under the parachute, she would never fly with me again. But I never lied to her about the safety or the risk of an individual flight, but brought her in to the decision making on the risk of an individual flight, and how I was mitigating that risk. When we outgrew the Cirrus, I didn’t have to sell her on the absence of a chute, I just had to keep selling her on the fact that I was going to operate that aircraft in the safest manner possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 00:25 
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Username Protected wrote:

I have heard from multiple guys that their wives didn't want to upgrade to a SETP because it didn't have a parachute like their SR22 did...pure insanity...


Here is my take on that. I think a lot of guys sold the parachute to their wives so hard that when it came time to upgrade, they kind of shot themselves in the foot, because they either had to admit they oversold the device, or find a way to sell the new plane. Most people do not have an intrinsic fear of small planes. If they have faith in their pilot, and that pilot’s judgment, then they have little concern for the flight. Myself, being driven more by data than emotion, never oversold my wife on the parachute. Don’t have to be a rocket scientist, to see that the parachute in the Cirrus has only resulted in an average safety record. There are plenty of reasons to own a Cirrus. I liked the speed, FIKI and comfort, but would have taken it with or without CAPS. I did know that if I ever crashed an aircraft, even if we landed under parachute, she would never fly with me again. But I never lied to her about the safety or the risk of an individual flight. I brought her in to the decision making on the risk of the individual flight when she asked, and how I was mitigating that risk. When we outgrew the Cirrus, I didn’t have to backtrack and refute the necessity of a chute, I just had to keep selling her on the fact that I was going to operate whatever aircraft we flew in the safest manner possible for that specific aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 11:51 
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Username Protected wrote:

I have heard from multiple guys that their wives didn't want to upgrade to a SETP because it didn't have a parachute like their SR22 did...pure insanity...


Here is my take on that. I think a lot of guys sold the parachute to their wife so hard that when it came time to upgrade, they kind of shot themselves in the foot. Most people do not have an intrinsic fear of small planes. Of they have faith in the pilot, and that pilot’s judgment, then they have little concern for the flight. Myself, being driven more by data than emotion, never oversold my wife on the parachute. Don’t have to be a rocket scientist, to see that the parachute in the series has not resulted in an aircraft with above average safety. But there are plenty of reasons to own the Cirrus. I liked the speed, FIKI and comfort. I did know that if I ever crashed an aircraft, even if we landed under the parachute, she would never fly with me again. But I never lied to her about the safety or the risk of an individual flight, but brought her in to the decision making on the risk of an individual flight, and how I was mitigating that risk. When we outgrew the Cirrus, I didn’t have to sell her on the absence of a chute, I just had to keep selling her on the fact that I was going to operate that aircraft in the safest manner possible.


Very true!

the reality is that parachutes don't prevent stall / spins when landing and CFIT... and that's where people typically kill themselves in aircraft.
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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 13:22 
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[quote.[/quote]

Here we go with the knocking the chute again. It works, it has saved lives, and it's a great selling point. But this continuous knock on that feature of the Cirrus line is silly. If you can afford a turbine, then fly it and enjoy the speed and comfort. Congrats. If someone decides that an SR22 is "safer" for them, good for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 14:41 
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Username Protected wrote:

Agreed!

Lance Neibauer, the founder of Lancair is a friend of mine, the course of events that ended with Textron making the final fumble, is just astonishing.

Lance said he strongly encouraged Textron to keep the all of the composite production in Bend. They could have built the airframes and wings there and shipped them to Wichita for final assembly if they wanted. Someone at TXT missed the fact that climate control is essential when building composites. Whoever thought Mexico was a good idea needs their butt kicked. This is what happens when you make decisions by committee / bean counters.

The 400 is probably the best piston airplane ever built, it would see very well against Cirrus had it ever really been given a chance. Sure, do the chute just to take that advantage away, but the reality is the Cirrus has a chute because it needs it.

The other thing that would have been great is to move it from Utility Category to Normal Category and lighten it up about 500lbs!

At the end of the day, we all know that Textron would rather sell one Ascend than 100 Lancair Columbia 400 / Columbia 400 / Corvalis / TTx



Well, that's why Textron pulled the Citation and all turbines out of the Cessna organization and into the Textron organization. All that's left of Cessna are a piddly number of piston aircraft sales and parts.

I would have really loved to see where the Columbia line would have gone. They faced not a lack of sales, but two disasters beyond their control. The first, was the economic meltdown of 2008. The second was the freak hailstorm that destroyed about 100 aircraft waiting to be delivered to customers.

That 1-2 punch killed the company.

On the Cessna side, the engineers at Cessna seemed to regard Columbia as a bunch of ignorant cowboys who couldn't shoot straight. Cessna did some good things early on, as the 2008 year is often considered the cream of the crop of the Columbia.

Then the inevitable idiocy of large corporations took over.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 15:32 
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Username Protected wrote:

Here we go with the knocking the chute again. It works, it has saved lives, and it's a great selling point. But this continuous knock on that feature of the Cirrus line is silly. If you can afford a turbine, then fly it and enjoy the speed and comfort. Congrats. If someone decides that an SR22 is "safer" for them, good for them.


It's not so much a knock as it is stating the obvious, most fatality crashed occur in situations where the chute would not help. The chute only works if you have an issue at a safe altitude, the reality is that is pretty much losing power in flight... in which case you can simply land the airplane. It is very comforting for a non-pilot passenger to be able to pull the chute in the case of pilot incapacitation. Maybe that has happened, but I don't believe I have ever heard of it.

The fact is that Cirrus couldn't get the airpalne certified because because you couldn't recover from a one spin stall, so the chute was the solution.

I think the Cirrus is a great airplane! I think what they have done for aviation deserves a gold medal. I also think the chute is a better pacifier than it is an actual safety device.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 15:35 
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Username Protected wrote:

Agreed!

Lance Neibauer, the founder of Lancair is a friend of mine, the course of events that ended with Textron making the final fumble, is just astonishing.

Lance said he strongly encouraged Textron to keep the all of the composite production in Bend. They could have built the airframes and wings there and shipped them to Wichita for final assembly if they wanted. Someone at TXT missed the fact that climate control is essential when building composites. Whoever thought Mexico was a good idea needs their butt kicked. This is what happens when you make decisions by committee / bean counters.

The 400 is probably the best piston airplane ever built, it would see very well against Cirrus had it ever really been given a chance. Sure, do the chute just to take that advantage away, but the reality is the Cirrus has a chute because it needs it.

The other thing that would have been great is to move it from Utility Category to Normal Category and lighten it up about 500lbs!

At the end of the day, we all know that Textron would rather sell one Ascend than 100 Lancair Columbia 400 / Columbia 400 / Corvalis / TTx



Well, that's why Textron pulled the Citation and all turbines out of the Cessna organization and into the Textron organization. All that's left of Cessna are a piddly number of piston aircraft sales and parts.



Maybe I missed something, but I don't think that is accurate. As far as I know, Cessna is still the company that builds Citations and that company is owned by Textron.

Do you have a news release or something?
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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 18:33 
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The fact is that Cirrus couldn't get the airpalne certified because you couldn't recover from a one spin stall, so the chute was the solution.

That is not quite accurate. According to the article below, Cirrus did indeed perform spin testing but didn't complete the full series. The article implies that the full spin test program wasn't necessary because that chute, which they planned to incorporate anyway, satisfied the certification requirements as a method of recovering from a spin.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... pinning-in

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 18:58 
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The Phenom 300E gross weight is 18552, this one is 20,xxx - that don’t make it a midsize, it’s still a light jet based on cabin size. They appear to be similar range, similar load carrying.

The 300E is .80
The 300E has Pratts
The 300E is SP (admittedly, hard to operate with high insurance limits)
The 300E is G3000
The 300E has the ability for 9 seats and still good range with that load.
The 300E has great baggage capabilities
The 300E does not have a flat floor

Overall, this looks like a “me too” product.

Just stoking the fire, don’t take offense :peace:


I’ll play along here....(XLS+)

-.78 versus .80 isn’t a huge difference at altitude. They’re both slow.
-The Excel has Pratt’s
-SP has already been discussed, that’s just going to be beating a dead horse at this point.
-(I’m gonna get drug out behind the woodshed for this ) but as a professional pilot, I acutally prefer Proline 21 over Garmin (the jury is still out on whether I like the (Con)Fusion). :bat:
-I can put nine 200 pound passengers, 350 pounds of bags (in a larger baggage compartment too), and still fly almost 1,000 miles (no idea what the Phenom will do)
-See my baggage compartment comment above
-The XLS does not have a flat floor.
I do however, have an APU and TR’s.

The Phenom isn’t in the same category as the Excel, and if that’s what Textron is trying to go after with this Ascend, they’re out of their element.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 19:10 
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Quote:
The Phenom 300E gross weight is 18552, this one is 20,xxx - that don’t make it a midsize, it’s still a light jet based on cabin size. They appear to be similar range, similar load carrying.

The 300E is .80
The 300E has Pratts
The 300E is SP (admittedly, hard to operate with high insurance limits)
The 300E is G3000
The 300E has the ability for 9 seats and still good range with that load.
The 300E has great baggage capabilities
The 300E does not have a flat floor

Overall, this looks like a “me too” product.

Just stoking the fire, don’t take offense :peace:


I’ll play along here....(XLS+)

-.78 versus .80 isn’t a huge difference at altitude. They’re both slow.
-The Excel has Pratt’s
-SP has already been discussed, that’s just going to be beating a dead horse at this point.
-(I’m gonna get drug out behind the woodshed for this ) but as a professional pilot, I acutally prefer Proline 21 over Garmin (the jury is still out on whether I like the (Con)Fusion). :bat:
-I can put nine 200 pound passengers, 350 pounds of bags (in a larger baggage compartment too), and still fly almost 1,000 miles (no idea what the Phenom will do)
-See my baggage compartment comment above
-The XLS does not have a flat floor.
I do however, have an APU and TR’s.

EXACTLY!!

The Phenom isn’t in the same category as the Excel, and if that’s what Textron is trying to go after with this Ascend, they’re out of their element.


The CJ4 competes with the Phenom 300 and does so quite well, we had one client choose the Phenom 300 between the two and the other is going to order a CJ4.

Yes, the Phenom looks big for a light jet, but it’s not the hoss that an XLS / Ascend is.

It’s sort of like comparing a CJ2+ or CJ3 with a V / Ultra / Encore, the latter is more airplane.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 20:36 
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Username Protected wrote:

The fact is that Cirrus couldn't get the airpalne certified because because you couldn't recover from a one spin stall, so the chute was the solution.


That “fact” is an OWT that has been debunked a thousand times over. It’s pretty much a red flag that if it’s written, you know without a doubt the author has no idea what he's talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 21:29 
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Username Protected wrote:

The fact is that Cirrus couldn't get the airplane certified because because you couldn't recover from a one spin stall, so the chute was the solution.


That “fact” is an OWT that has been debunked a thousand times over. It’s pretty much a red flag that if it’s written, you know without a doubt the author has no idea what he's talking about.


Well, you are correct that Cirrus are certainly not my area of expertise, I have always believed this was the case, I know that both Lancair and Cirrus had to get ELOS for certification, so there may have been an assumption there that the chute was required when it was in fact just considered as part of the ELOS process.

Regardless, thanks for correcting my misinformation! Unfortunately there’s dozens of articles on the internet reinforcing it.
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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 21:31 
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Ass-end?

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