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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 21:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
Ass-end?


Yes, they must feel they have escaped the “Slowtation” moniker… and the common joke that a Citation can have a birdstrike on the rudder, because a goose ran into it from behind! An ass-end birdstrike!

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 22:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
Maybe I missed something, but I don't think that is accurate. As far as I know, Cessna is still the company that builds Citations and that company is owned by Textron.

Do you have a news release or something?


Last time I checked, my pay stubs said Textron Aviation, and we make Beechcraft and Cessnas. No Textrons.

It's a Cessna Citation Ascend . . . by Textron Aviation.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 26 May 2023, 23:41 
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Username Protected wrote:
Last time I checked, my pay stubs said Textron Aviation, and we make Beechcraft and Cessnas. No Textrons.

It's a Cessna Citation Ascend . . . by Textron Aviation.


For nowuhhhhh........(in my best Davey Jones voice!).......


[youtube]https://youtu.be/f7oMu38phHU[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 27 May 2023, 08:20 
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I’ll play along here....(XLS+)

-.78 versus .80 isn’t a huge difference at altitude. They’re both slow.
-The Excel has Pratt’s
-SP has already been discussed, that’s just going to be beating a dead horse at this point.
-(I’m gonna get drug out behind the woodshed for this ) but as a professional pilot, I acutally prefer Proline 21 over Garmin (the jury is still out on whether I like the (Con)Fusion). :bat:
-I can put nine 200 pound passengers, 350 pounds of bags (in a larger baggage compartment too), and still fly almost 1,000 miles (no idea what the Phenom will do)
-See my baggage compartment comment above
-The XLS does not have a flat floor.
I do however, have an APU and TR’s.

The Phenom isn’t in the same category as the Excel, and if that’s what Textron is trying to go after with this Ascend, they’re out of their element.


——————-+

Sorry, I messed up the quote on my iPad, but …….

#1 - the APU is nice for sure, but it does add weight and costs.

#2 - TR’s are great too, but not really necessary in the 300, landing numbers are low anyway, but on contaminated runways TR’s would be nice for sure.

#3 - I like the GARMIN 3000 and I also fly with Proline Fusion (Legacy/Praetor typed as well) and both have their strong points and weak points. It’s a bit of a religious issue for some.


The 300E that i fly and a BOW of 12,100, adding 2150# of pax and bags for your scenario, that’s 14250. Gross is 18552 so that leaves 4300# of fuel. That does about 1000 normal winds miles as well, maybe slightly more.

I just did that load in a flight plane and I can do EVV-ELP and EVV-BGR (less fuel required) and did those with plenty of reserves. Cana CJ3 or CJ4 do that trip with those loads, I would guess not but I’m not sure.

I wholeheartedly agree, the Phenom isn’t an XLS+ and wasn’t the target market, but it will do those trips - albeit in less comfort I would guess (never been in an XLS+). But that’s also a bit like comparing a Chevy Colorado to a Chevy Silverado. Not the same and not intended to be.

Compare it to a CJ3 or Cj4 and I think the Phenom wins in most, if not all areas. Does Cessna still sell CJ’s, yes, to the die hard Cessna guys, but the Phenom isn’t the best selling light jet for the last 8 years or so because it’s a slouch.

Brad


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 27 May 2023, 19:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’ll play along here....(XLS+)

-.78 versus .80 isn’t a huge difference at altitude. They’re both slow.
-The Excel has Pratt’s
-SP has already been discussed, that’s just going to be beating a dead horse at this point.
-(I’m gonna get drug out behind the woodshed for this ) but as a professional pilot, I acutally prefer Proline 21 over Garmin (the jury is still out on whether I like the (Con)Fusion). :bat:
-I can put nine 200 pound passengers, 350 pounds of bags (in a larger baggage compartment too), and still fly almost 1,000 miles (no idea what the Phenom will do)
-See my baggage compartment comment above
-The XLS does not have a flat floor.
I do however, have an APU and TR’s.

The Phenom isn’t in the same category as the Excel, and if that’s what Textron is trying to go after with this Ascend, they’re out of their element.


——————-+

Sorry, I messed up the quote on my iPad, but …….

#1 - the APU is nice for sure, but it does add weight and costs.

#2 - TR’s are great too, but not really necessary in the 300, landing numbers are low anyway, but on contaminated runways TR’s would be nice for sure.

#3 - I like the GARMIN 3000 and I also fly with Proline Fusion (Legacy/Praetor typed as well) and both have their strong points and weak points. It’s a bit of a religious issue for some.


The 300E that i fly and a BOW of 12,100, adding 2150# of pax and bags for your scenario, that’s 14250. Gross is 18552 so that leaves 4300# of fuel. That does about 1000 normal winds miles as well, maybe slightly more.

I just did that load in a flight plane and I can do EVV-ELP and EVV-BGR (less fuel required) and did those with plenty of reserves. Cana CJ3 or CJ4 do that trip with those loads, I would guess not but I’m not sure.

I wholeheartedly agree, the Phenom isn’t an XLS+ and wasn’t the target market, but it will do those trips - albeit in less comfort I would guess (never been in an XLS+). But that’s also a bit like comparing a Chevy Colorado to a Chevy Silverado. Not the same and not intended to be.

Compare it to a CJ3 or Cj4 and I think the Phenom wins in most, if not all areas. Does Cessna still sell CJ’s, yes, to the die hard Cessna guys, but the Phenom isn’t the best selling light jet for the last 8 years or so because it’s a slouch.

Brad


Agreed, Textron’s service network and MSU’s tip the scales but airplane to airplane the Phenom wins.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 30 May 2023, 17:32 
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Then put 300 of those newly found 500 lbs into a parachute...I think it is dumb, but it is a big decision maker for a lot of wives. I have heard from multiple guys that their wives didn't want to upgrade to a SETP because it didn't have a parachute like their SR22 did...pure insanity...

It's not insanity for a non-pilot spouse when thinking about pilot incapacitation. Yes it is rare and yes the spouse should take a pinch-hitter course but the fear is real and the chute is a valid solution for this scenario. My wife and I talked a lot about it when we were moving from the SR22 to the 501. She knew the process to properly deploy the chute in case I had a medical issue and we practiced it a few times on the ground. She keeps talking about taking a pinch hitter course but at this point I think that my 12-year old (who is chomping at the bit to learn to fly and sits up front with me nearly all the time) will be ready to take over before she will.

As to the Columbia - ideally they could have figured out how to make it an option. That way people could choose a chute or have additional payload.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2023, 13:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
Where the foot wells were previously, they can now add a fuel tank. And it still can't make NY to LA nonstop? Or Hawaii?

That HondaJet 2600 is gonna smoke this fool.


I don't know who would buy an Ascend when you can get a HJ 2600 for the same money. Maybe someone who doesn't want to wait, but other than that I can't see any reason to get this over a 2600.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2023, 21:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
The turbine RDD LX7s cost the same as an SR22T. Why anyone would choose the latter over the former is astonishing.

-J


Because they are experimental. The insurance runs in the high 5 figures for even high time pilots. End of story.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2023, 19:09 
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[quote="Adam S Frisch"
[/quote]

A retractable, pressurized 400 with a chute in Cirrus pricing would have been a killer seller, I think.[/quote]


You mean a LX-7?


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2023, 19:22 
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A relevant question of Cirrus vs the Columbia /TTx is this….

If the chute is so much safer to have over not having it why is the fatality rate of these aircraft the same? Actually the Columbia /TTx has a BETTER fatality rate.

The so called “saves” that Cirrus ballyhoos is stupid. How do they know that the 139 or so that have deployed the chute and lives would not have safely landed the airplane in a field and lives also in a TTx?


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2023, 21:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
A relevant question of Cirrus vs the Columbia /TTx is this….

If the chute is so much safer to have over not having it why is the fatality rate of these aircraft the same? Actually the Columbia /TTx has a BETTER fatality rate.

The so called “saves” that Cirrus ballyhoos is stupid. How do they know that the 139 or so that have deployed the chute and lives would not have safely landed the airplane in a field and lives also in a TTx?


That's a silly and dopey statement, "stupid." You lost the argument before you even started.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2023, 00:53 
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If the chute is so much safer to have over not having it why is the fatality rate of these aircraft the same? Actually the Columbia /TTx has a BETTER fatality rate.

Yes, it does have a better fatality rate, but the training program Cirrus put in place starting 2012 has made them much closer and saved lives.

Ironically, telling Cirrus pilots to pull early and pull often did NOT results in high pull rates of the chute. What it did result in is better awareness that pilots are on their way to needing the chute and that early awareness leads them to changing the outcome in traditional ways rather than the chute. The message, never stated but clearly evident, is that the chute doesn't make you invincible and you need to recognize that early.

Quote:
How do they know that the 139 or so that have deployed the chute and lives would not have safely landed the airplane in a field and lives also in a TTx?

They don't. It is marketing.

I surmise that majority of the chute pulls are not actually lives saved. We have at least two instances where the chute was called for and it didn't work. In both those cases, no one died. So we know FOR SURE those chute "pulls" were not "saves". We also have instances of Cirrus pilots doing really stupid things and ultimately needing the chute, like the accident in TN where the pilot flew past a suitable airport with an engine starving for oil, which then later seized and he required the chute. Reference:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=199021&p=2932964#p2932964

Balancing the times the chute did save lives are the times it has allow pilots to operate above their natural risk tolerance leading to a fatal accident. Many Cirrus pilots tell us their judgment isn't influenced by the chute, and then in the next sentence they would never make some flight without it. Duh. Some Cirrus pilots do acknowledge the chute enables them to take riskier flights (night, IMC, mountains, etc) that they would not otherwise take. In this way, the chute is not a safety device but a mission expanding device.

If the chute did not affect judgment and was used properly, the Cirrus SHOULD have an extremely low fatal accident rate. It doesn't. It has managed to be about average in the 4 seat fixed gear class. The net safety effect of the chute is approximately neutral. But yet, every use is celebrated.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2023, 08:16 
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I haven’t studied Cirrus accidents, but I have studied many fatal accidents and what I discovered is that most fatalities are CFIT or stall / spin from low altitude, usually in the airport environment. I suspect this is how most Cirrus fatalities occur as well, in those situations the chute has limited application.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2023, 16:32 
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I happen to personally know a G5 Cirrus will recover from an incipient spin just fine.
Day before I sold mine I had the bright idea to see how she did in falling leaf.
Side yoke all way back and dance on rudders in stall and right wing suddenly dropped and I iz pointed at the ground starting a spin. Recovery was instantaneous similar to my Citabria.

I was warner to NEVER get close to spin in Columbia 350 (smaller rudder) by a very experienced upset trainer.
Columbia 400 I think is spin certified.

I wonder what single pilot airplane has the tallest and widest cabin :stir:

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2023, 17:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
I wonder what single pilot airplane has the tallest and widest cabin :stir:

A Breezy (and others like it).

Near infinite shoulder and headroom.
Attachment:
breezy-cabin-room.png

Mike C.


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