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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 10:15 
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Where the foot wells were previously, they can now add a fuel tank. And it still can't make NY to LA nonstop? Or Hawaii?

That HondaJet 2600 is gonna smoke this fool.

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Last edited on 23 May 2023, 11:45, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 11:04 
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Where the foot wells were previously, they can now add a fuel tank. And it still can't makeNY to LA nonstop? Or Hawaii?

That HondaJet 2600 is gonna smoke this fool.


If it can stay on the runway. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

BTW, those are "ROFFL" emojis - rolling on the flat floor.

And Chip, I am offended that Textron did not listen to me and add an SP option to a jet I didn't know existed and can't afford. My panties have been bunched.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 11:45 
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Username Protected wrote:

BTW, those are "ROFFL" emojis - rolling on the flat floor.


:coffee:

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 11:48 
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A 3D-simulated jet, for 3D-simulated travel?



:rofl:


As JC would say, "It's a cartoon". :lol:

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 11:51 
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That HondaJet 2600 is gonna smoke this fool.


HJ will fix the problem in the 2600. Simple POH limitation that limits the jet to 12,000 foot dry paved runways, during day VMC. Problem solved. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 11:57 
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I wish I had $17M worth of places I need to go.

My wife asked, "Can it make Hawaii from California?"


This is basically the only question that matters for new mid-range biz jets. If Honda pulls this off single pilot insurably in the 2600, things will get interesting.

-J

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 11:58 
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That HondaJet 2600 is gonna smoke this fool.


HJ will fix the problem in the 2600. Simple POH limitation that limits the jet to 12,000 foot dry paved runways, during day VMC. Problem solved. ;-)


Charles, if only you had some association with a type unfairly maligned for runway exposures ;)

-J
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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 12:07 
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Charles, if only you had some association with a type unfairly maligned for runway exposures ;)

-J


For sure ;-) Something kind of interesting has happened though. With the M600. Piper released a bunch of SB's. Things like fill the tires to spec as required by the POH, keep the steering linkages in spec as per the service manuals, adhere to proper landing techniques, properly tow the plane so you don't break the front gear... and the excursions have essentially stopped. Wonder if Honda needs to do something similar, mainly get the pilots to fly the plane correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 16:44 
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snip

Textron has done a good job of keeping 30+ year old airframes relevant. What they have not done a good job on is significant innovation. Has all been incremental.

Took them years to respond to the Denali. (the internet is a fad) Citation tube is very long in the tooth. Phenom 100 and 300 cross sections much better. If the 100 was not so bad in terms of being underpowered and lousy brakes, would be giving the M2 a run for its money.

Cirrus kicking Textron's butt in the single engine piston class.

Cessna/Textron make good planes with no bad habits. They have a much more extensive support network. They lag Embraer in innovation in the light jet category, mid-sized too. M2 outsells the Phenom 100 3:1. But the Embraer sells as many Phenom 300s each year as Cessna sells CJ3+ and CJ4 combined. They lag Pilatus in the SETP category. Will see how PC-24 pans out. They lag Cirrus in the piston innovation category.

At some stage need to obsolete the 30 and 40 year old airframes and pursue substantial and transformational innovation. And I am a two-time Textron owner (Beech, Cessna).


As a veteran of the Lancair/Columbia experiment, I got excited when Textron bought that product line for pennies on the dollar. It made a ton of sense to me at the time, thinking Cessna could skip many steps ahead in their languishing NGP (Next Gen Piston) efforts and skip their traditional and tiny incremental improvements, and leap right into a competitive product line. They would have the money, stature and patience to stand up a production line and do it well, so I thought. Instead, they made some bad strategic decisions IMO and fell on their face in the execution of the plan, and didn't care to try to fix anything in earnest, or market it aggressively against Cirrus. Then they just gave up. I think the bosses at the time didn't want anything to do with pistons or even propellers, and that's a shame. Their lack of improvement or action with the Bo and Baron lines since the HBC acquisition supports that theory too. (I had heard rumors that HBC had an updated Bo ready to unveil before their bankruptcy, and Textron killed the project after the acquisition.)

This new Citation variant doesn't sound like too much of an improvement, but I don't live in that world and can't comment intelligently on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 18:09 
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As a veteran of the Lancair/Columbia experiment, I got excited when Textron bought that product line for pennies on the dollar. It made a ton of sense to me at the time, thinking Cessna could skip many steps ahead in their languishing NGP (Next Gen Piston) efforts and skip their traditional and tiny incremental improvements, and leap right into a competitive product line. They would have the money, stature and patience to stand up a production line and do it well, so I thought. Instead, they made some bad strategic decisions IMO and fell on their face in the execution of the plan, and didn't care to try to fix anything in earnest, or market it aggressively against Cirrus. Then they just gave up. I think the bosses at the time didn't want anything to do with pistons or even propellers, and that's a shame. Their lack of improvement or action with the Bo and Baron lines since the HBC acquisition supports that theory too. (I had heard rumors that HBC had an updated Bo ready to unveil before their bankruptcy, and Textron killed the project after the acquisition.)


A retractable, pressurized 400 with a chute in Cirrus pricing would have been a killer seller, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 18:49 
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The Phenom 300E gross weight is 18552, this one is 20,xxx - that don’t make it a midsize, it’s still a light jet based on cabin size. They appear to be similar range, similar load carrying.

The 300E is .80
The 300E has Pratts
The 300E is SP (admittedly, hard to operate with high insurance limits)
The 300E is G3000
The 300E has the ability for 9 seats and still good range with that load.
The 300E has great baggage capabilities
The 300E does not have a flat floor

Overall, this looks like a “me too” product.

Just stoking the fire, don’t take offense :peace:

Brad


Nailed it... why pay $16.75mm for a plane when you can pay $10mm-$12mm for a plane that has just as good, if not better performance.

Only advantage for the Ascend is 1-2 pax more.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 23 May 2023, 23:48 
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2. They will have a real winner if they end up getting SP cert. It would be competitive with the PC-24 and Phenom. I think Mike Ciholas has chimed in the past; the reason the XLS isn't SP is due to, how far the pilot has to reach for certain items in an emergency (e.g. circuit breakers). And I think he said at one point, they tried for SP cert. I think the original 560's are SP (5, Ultra, Encore).

560 series is not SP. You need an SPE (Single Pilot Exemption) to fly it SP in the US. But that is an FAA thing and not recognized internationally. I believe that only 501 (Citation I) and 551 (Citation II) are SP on their type certificate (maybe the Bravo as well?).


I think the 501 and 551 are safer SP than any twin with propellers, with good training.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 24 May 2023, 17:03 
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As a veteran of the Lancair/Columbia experiment, I got excited when Textron bought that product line for pennies on the dollar. It made a ton of sense to me at the time, thinking Cessna could skip many steps ahead in their languishing NGP (Next Gen Piston) efforts and skip their traditional and tiny incremental improvements, and leap right into a competitive product line. They would have the money, stature and patience to stand up a production line and do it well, so I thought. Instead, they made some bad strategic decisions IMO and fell on their face in the execution of the plan, and didn't care to try to fix anything in earnest, or market it aggressively against Cirrus. Then they just gave up. I think the bosses at the time didn't want anything to do with pistons or even propellers, and that's a shame. Their lack of improvement or action with the Bo and Baron lines since the HBC acquisition supports that theory too. (I had heard rumors that HBC had an updated Bo ready to unveil before their bankruptcy, and Textron killed the project after the acquisition.)


A retractable, pressurized 400 with a chute in Cirrus pricing would have been a killer seller, I think.


A certified RDD LX7 piston then

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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 24 May 2023, 21:03 
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A retractable, pressurized 400 with a chute in Cirrus pricing would have been a killer seller, I think.


Not possible to build such a thing at that price, but that alone, would have made it killer.

Honestly, had they not totally screwed up, Textron could have had a good thing in the 400/Corvallis/Ttx. All they managed to do was re-name it 2-times, get manufacturing halted by the FAA for over a year after moving composite wing assembly to Mexico and screwed up so bad they delaminated a test article wing in flight, and otherwise, just messed up.

Textron ain't interested in piston anything. They extracted everything of value out of the Cessna name (jet and turboprop) and left all the piston business and parts behind.

No one in Textron considers moving into piston aviation as a career-improving move. They'd rather move into the golf cart division. (yes, they have one).


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 Post subject: Re: Textron Announces Citation Ascend 5/22/23
PostPosted: 25 May 2023, 10:32 
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Username Protected wrote:

A retractable, pressurized 400 with a chute in Cirrus pricing would have been a killer seller, I think.


Not possible to build such a thing at that price, but that alone, would have made it killer.

Honestly, had they not totally screwed up, Textron could have had a good thing in the 400/Corvallis/Ttx. All they managed to do was re-name it 2-times, get manufacturing halted by the FAA for over a year after moving composite wing assembly to Mexico and screwed up so bad they delaminated a test article wing in flight, and otherwise, just messed up.

Textron ain't interested in piston anything. They extracted everything of value out of the Cessna name (jet and turboprop) and left all the piston business and parts behind.

No one in Textron considers moving into piston aviation as a career-improving move. They'd rather move into the golf cart division. (yes, they have one).


Agreed!

Lance Neibauer, the founder of Lancair is a friend of mine, the course of events that ended with Textron making the final fumble, is just astonishing.

Lance said he strongly encouraged Textron to keep the all of the composite production in Bend. They could have built the airframes and wings there and shipped them to Wichita for final assembly if they wanted. Someone at TXT missed the fact that climate control is essential when building composites. Whoever thought Mexico was a good idea needs their butt kicked. This is what happens when you make decisions by committee / bean counters.

The 400 is probably the best piston airplane ever built, it would see very well against Cirrus had it ever really been given a chance. Sure, do the chute just to take that advantage away, but the reality is the Cirrus has a chute because it needs it.

The other thing that would have been great is to move it from Utility Category to Normal Category and lighten it up about 500lbs!

At the end of the day, we all know that Textron would rather sell one Ascend than 100 Lancair Columbia 400 / Columbia 400 / Corvalis / TTx
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