BeechTalk - BT - Cessnas 2 Oshkosh seeking redemption this year

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 12:50

The C2OSH group has managed to get on the bad side of the FAA and apparently needs to have a performance that’s just about perfect this year to keep the mass arrival going. They posted the message below on the website this morning.

I don’t know what specific items were a concern for the FAA. After my one experience (I did the ground training but could not complete the flight training or do the arrival), I guess I’m not too surprised. I don’t think that instructors leading the training held FAST cards or did any formation flying other than the mass arrival, and the ground training included only the most general concepts of formation flying. I hope they manage to get things turned around, but I think it will take new leadership to do it.

Quote:

Hello All Cessnas 2 Oshkosh Aficionados,

We would like to take a moment to catch you up on what has been happening with your beloved event and why we are so late in opening registration.

In late January we were contacted by the FAA and told that we had failed to live up to expectations and that were cancelled. Our friends at the EAA pleaded our case and got us back on the schedule with some significant changes. First, we will be limited to 50 aircraft for the mass arrival, and we will be allowed another 25 aircraft in a group of "pre-arrivals". Second, our arrival was moved from Saturday afternoon to 5:00 pm on Friday. WE WILL our customary parking spot, next to the old red shower house and our tent.

This is a make or break year and some important changes have been made to our registration process. These changes are necessary to insure the continued longevity of our event. Due to the fact that we have to perform flawlessly, the mass arrival participants will be selected rather than acdcepted on a first-come basis. The selection will be based on number of arrivals accomplished and prior years performance. The formation will be flown by like performance aircraft at a single speed of one-hundred-ten (110) knots for the entire formation stream.

We will also have a group of twenty-five (25) "pre-arrivals" that will utilize the Fisk arrival. After landing, they will be directed to parking with the main group. The "pre-arrivals" are expected to arrive at KOSH between 3:00 pm and 5:00 pm CDT (UTC-5) on Friday before the mass arrival. Pre-arrivals will be identified by a special windshield placard. There will only be 25 of those placards distributed.

We have spent the last three months negotiating what we have now, and we trust that everyone will bring their "A game" so that our organization can extricate itself from this situation. These measures do not preclude any of our former pilots, friends and relatives from attending AirVenture and joining us. All past Cessnas 2 Oshkosh participants will be welcomed at Cessna BaseCamp, regardless of whether you fly the 2023 arrival, the Fisk arrival or drive to AirVenture. We would love to see everyone join us in BaseCamp for the social aspect of Cessnas 2 Oshkosh.

We can only imagine your disappointment, but please understand and trust that we have done everything in our power to minimize the effects of this unexpected and unjustified FAA action.

The clinic roster will be posted shortly and we look forward to seeing you in July.

Blue Skies,

Craig, Gil, and Rodney

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 13:26

Interesting note, it would be fun to know the backstory. Maybe there are lessons to be learned?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 13:49

FAST cards?

[youtube]https://youtu.be/VqomZQMZQCQ[/youtube]

I’d didn’t even know that was a thing, though I thought they’d send you little wing pins or something, never asked, never wanted lol

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 16:17

Any idea of the backstory? Does that group just fly a big gaggle, without rigorous training and procedures?

Quite a few years ago our Mooney Caravan group evolved from the loose gaggle to "real" formation like B2OSH pioneered and I think it was the correct choice. I believe we have very similar procedures that are rooted in military ops and the civilian orgs like FAAST. Hopefully Cessnas 2 OSH can undergo a similar transformation.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 16:56

Don’t know what the circumstances were for the Cessna group, but i watched a YouTube video of the Ercoupe group going to Oshkosh. that was hard to watch. far, far from the quality of the B2Osh performance.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 17:01

My limited take, I only participated once, and once was enough for me.

1) Cessnas have a wide range of speeds, and the C2O organizers tried to manage that difference using a 'staggered start' methodology where the slowest planes launched first (a C150 was in the lead, IIRC) and the fastest planes (a Twin Cessna that year) launched later. The idea was to have a simultaneous arrival. That didn't work very well. Bonanzas can all fly at the same speeds, so it's probably easier to manage one big formation of Bonanzas than a spread-out large formation meetup of many flavors of Cessnas flying at different speeds.

2) Training and general flying competence of the participating pilots varied widely, we had people who were not sure what to do after losing their airspeed indicator, people saying on the radio "I can't fly this slow!" in formation, etc.

3) The year I participated, the organizers had invited the "flight chops" youtube channel to film the event, and in my opinion they were seriously distracted hamming it up for the cameras.

Overall, it was a giant goat rodeo, I haven't wanted to try it again. I hope they are able to improve the experience.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 17:31

Username Protected wrote:

My limited take, I only participated once, and once was enough for me.

1) Cessnas have a wide range of speeds, and the C2O organizers tried to manage that difference using a 'staggered start' methodology where the slowest planes launched first (a C150 was in the lead, IIRC) and the fastest planes (a Twin Cessna that year) launched later. The idea was to have a simultaneous arrival. That didn't work very well. Bonanzas can all fly at the same speeds, so it's probably easier to manage one big formation of Bonanzas than a spread-out large formation meetup of many flavors of Cessnas flying at different speeds.

2) Training and general flying competence of the participating pilots varied widely, we had people who were not sure what to do after losing their airspeed indicator, people saying on the radio "I can't fly this slow!" in formation, etc.

3) The year I participated, the organizers had invited the "flight chops" youtube channel to film the event, and in my opinion they were seriously distracted hamming it up for the cameras.

Overall, it was a giant goat rodeo, I haven't wanted to try it again. I hope they are able to improve the experience.

When I read their 110kt thing, I’d have thought 100kts would have been better as most every Cessna can do that

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 17:46

C2OSH takes off in formation elements of 3 so that there are no joins/rejoins necessary, and they spread into single-file for landing. If you wind up breaking formation for whatever reason, you don't rejoin. You depart the gaggle and head for Fisk.

They seem to have chosen their rally point so that it's short and requires no turns. They depart KUNU, which is only 35 miles from OSH and almost aligned with runway 36. I asked what happens if the wind favors 27 or 18 and was told they always land 36, almost without regard to the wind.

I tried to join the group in '21 and we did the ground portion of the training online with one of the main organizers. I appreciated his time and effort to lead the group, but he seemed to be a little out of his depth. He could competently brief us on the basic group procedure and the safety rules, but could not answer specific questions that were part of the briefing. Questions like "What visual cues do I use to keep my alignment?" and "How do I judge if I'm too close or too far from my lead?"

When it came time to do the flying portion of the training, the weather was not cooperating. We got rained out on one day, and the next time we scheduled it was a gusty day with moderate turbulence. We briefed on Friday night and I said "The forecast is not good for first time formation training," but the group wanted to press on. I decided that I would make the trip and decline the training if I was uncomfortable, knowing that it was likely the only chance I'd get.

The next morning the wind was actually a little higher than forecast and I knew it was going to be bumpy as hell. I had the plane preflighted and was about to start up when I got a text message scrubbing the flight due to the conditions, and it ended with "Safety first!", which made me laugh because safety was clearly never a consideration until someone forced his hand.

I tried coaching him that for training like this, he should really set specific critera that need to be met, like "Wind less than 10 knots with no gusts, no turbulence forecast, ceilings greater than 5000', visibility greater than 5 miles," but I think he needed to be standing out in the wind himself to see that it was a bad day for our task.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 18:50

I have never participated in B2OSH nor C2OSH. I have arrived at Osh in formation with the North American Trainer Association.

We (participants in the NATA arrival) are not allowed to participate unless we have a current FAST card. For those that don’t know, FAST (formation and safety team) is the formation training program with standards that has been agreed upon between the FAA and industry. As an example, you are simply not allowed to fly formation in waivered airspace unless you have a current FAST card. Oshkosh is NOT waivered airspace prior to Monday.

All of this is a long preamble to the following: I cannot believe anyone is allowed to arrive at Osh in formation with ZERO formation training. Doing a three ship departure because your group can’t handle a rejoin sounds very risky. What the hell happens if Lead blows a tire on departure? During a normal take-off, do 2 and 3 know to stay on the ground until Lead is airborne so they don’t pass him? I suspect not given the statement by another post in this thread that the briefer couldn’t state the bearing line for the aircraft in question nor how to tell if they’re in formation.

Also, their departure airport (KUNU according to a prior post) has one runway that is 100 feet wide and a second that is 75 feet. Assuming they use the 100 foot wide runway, there will be overlap between Lead and 2 and/or 3. In NATA, we are not allowed to do section take-offs (2 aircraft) if the runway is less than 100 feet wide.

Good luck to them all - I wish them well. But this sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Zeke

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 19:48

Username Protected wrote:

I have never participated in B2OSH nor C2OSH. I have arrived at Osh in formation with the North American Trainer Association.

We (participants in the NATA arrival) are not allowed to participate unless we have a current FAST card. For those that don’t know, FAST (formation and safety team) is the formation training program with standards that has been agreed upon between the FAA and industry. As an example, you are simply not allowed to fly formation in waivered airspace unless you have a current FAST card. Oshkosh is NOT waivered airspace prior to Monday.

All of this is a long preamble to the following: I cannot believe anyone is allowed to arrive at Osh in formation with ZERO formation training. Doing a three ship departure because your group can’t handle a rejoin sounds very risky. What the hell happens if Lead blows a tire on departure? During a normal take-off, do 2 and 3 know to stay on the ground until Lead is airborne so they don’t pass him? I suspect not given the statement by another post in this thread that the briefer couldn’t state the bearing line for the aircraft in question nor how to tell if they’re in formation.

Also, their departure airport (KUNU according to a prior post) has one runway that is 100 feet wide and a second that is 75 feet. Assuming they use the 100 foot wide runway, there will be overlap between Lead and 2 and/or 3. In NATA, we are not allowed to do section take-offs (2 aircraft) if the runway is less than 100 feet wide.

Good luck to them all - I wish them well. But this sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Zeke

Several years ago the B2Osh program switched from "recommended" to mandatory formation training. The clinics focus on the very basics of formation work including 2 and 3 ship takeoffs and station keeping along with procedures for breaking out of the formation. The last time I participated they still had the problem of trailing elements closing the gap with the element being followed which inevitably produced a rather prominent "snake" as the stream of planes converged on final. The used to land 3 at a time with two on the runway and one on the taxiway (rwy 36 only) but I think that's been modified. But aside from the aforementioned snake on final the only problems I heard about were one pilot falling out and landing in a field because he was trying to fly LOP (expressly forbidden in formation) and his engine quit plus some "interesting" touchdowns.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 20:10

B2Osh has become a well oiled machine. When I started going in 1991, it was just show up, fly formation, and camp together. There was no training required and no verification as to credentials. That changed in 2005 or 06 when it was discovered that a non licensed pilot had been flying with us for years.

Now, however, there are regional formation clinics throughout the country each year to teach, train, and practice safe and effective formation flying. These clinics are ran by some of the foremost experts in formation flying, many of whom were or are military airmen.

Also, every pilot must have verifiable formation training, in the last year, and all credentials must be presented at sign in.

I will say, B2Osh, is the precedent for every other mass arrival group.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2023, 21:21

B2Osh seems to be the gold standard for this kind of thing. I'm not sure that it's also the minimum standard, but clearly, something is lacking in the Cessnas2Osh group.

I've been looking at the different mass arrival groups to see what the requirements are and how they're organized. The Mooney group seems pretty squared away too, and requires training with one of their formation "squadrons". Even the Cherokees group has a higher bar for experience, including 20 hours of flying time in the 90 days before the arrival.

I hope the C2O leadership looks at those other groups as a model for how they can do it better, but I suspect they're not going to.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Apr 2023, 00:23

B2OSH has set the standard from my knothole, and they helped influence the Mooney Caravan to raise the bar in a similar fashion. I know some of our leaders have participated in B2OSH training clinics, and have harmonized our training curriculum and materials. It is great fun of course, but also a very serious endeavor.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Apr 2023, 01:28

I took pictures of B2OSH in 2015 and 2017. They did very well and it was easy to get some good pics!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Apr 2023, 06:04

Lots of conjecture, for sure.

Has anyone seen Martin Pauley’s C2O video? He makes really good videos. Worth the watch. :pilot:

(I don’t know how to make it big like you guys do.)
[youtube] https://youtu.be/D6JeXzCl4eU [/youtube]

Edit: Everyone at the preflight briefing who will fly the arrival was required to participate every year in a regional training clinic which included ground instruction, Q&A, and practice flight.