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28 Mar 2024, 11:39 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 16:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Business jets are pretty bad per mile or passenger-mile, but when you look at the total they are probably pretty minor.

It's pretty hard to figure out, because it's rarely written in absolute numbers. It's always compared to something else. "100 times worse than a train!"

Well, how bad is it?
The total global output of CO2 is about 37 billion metric tons
The fashion industry outputs about 3.7 billion tons
All air travel outputs about 1 billion metric tons, or just about 2.7% of the global total
YouTube accounts for approximately 10 million tons. Yes, YouTube.
Private air travel is just under 1 million metric tons, or about 0.0025% of the global total

0.0025 %

If you like fractions, that's 1/40,000 or so.

If you like pictures, I made a picture that has approximately 40,000 black squares and one white square.

Do what you want with this info. I posted it because it's rarely presented in ways that make it easy to grasp the scope of the situation.

Attachment:
Screenshot 2023-03-27 142227.jpg


https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/03/world/ga ... index.html
https://flybitlux.com/what-is-the-carbo ... ravel,(CO2)into%20the%20atmosphere.
https://time.com/6208632/celebrities-cl ... ts-yachts/



According to the U.S. Geological Survey, published scientific estimates of the global CO2 emission rate for all degassing subaerial (on land) and submarine volcanoes lie in a range from 0.13 gigaton to 0.44 gigaton per year”
-USGS.gov


The thought that if we force [mostly middle class] people to not be able to fly or drive will allow the green elitists to basically control the weather…. [laughs in mother nature]

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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 21:27 
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Chip,

This is the elephant in the room.

While it's true that aviation - private aviation specifically - emits a tiny fraction of all CO2, that's not an argument to defend it. Every human being also emits an even tinier fraction of all CO2. Does that mean that no one therefore need do anything? This is a collective issue, which will need to be addressed collectively.
Sadly, when billionaires show up at Davos to discuss the environment, they often fly in alone (or two or three) in a Global Express. Not exactly the perfect photo op. Highlighting such extravagance has become the mission of a growing number of activists, who take pleasure in tracking and publicizing the movements of Elon Musk, the Kardashians and others in what has now become a new "thing": Flight Shaming. Here's but one example:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ate-crisis

While a lot of these activists know nothing about aviation (they assume that because a jet flew a short hop, it was necessarily carrying a rich dude, ignoring the existence of test flights and plain old repositionings), they are quite adept at highlighting some disturbing contradictions. Bombardier and other manufacturers have already recognized this and have begun boasting how environmentally friendlier their new aircraft are. (And it's true: Since the arrival of the 707, specific fuel consumption has improved 1% per year. Doesn't sound like much, but when compounded over 60 years, it's halved or better.) The large fractionals and charter operators (NetJets, Flexjets, etc.) will be doing the same. Individual users and corporate flight departments need to get ahead of this, or - I am convinced - it will bite them in the ass. Does anyone remember the hoopla caused in 2008 when executives from GM and Chrysler flew aboard private jets to Washington to beg Congress for funds to avoid bankruptcy? That picture is still fresh in the mind of corporate aviation.

As others have rightfully said, credits are just a way of passing the buck. SAF will never be produced in sufficient volume to feed the world's airlines, corporate jets and private users - without causing huge collateral issues of its own. Batteries? Not for another 50 years, given present technology - at least not for transcontinental flights. I believe that aviation is bound to become one of the last bastions of large-scale petroleum use simply because there is no alternative. In the large scheme of things, this is perfectly OK, as long as we address CO2 emissions elsewhere where we can. But we must get ahead of the PR battle. Sadly, most owners and users are still ignorant of the issue or simply not addressing it. This is not good.


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 22:41 
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The arguments presented in this thread are very fact-based and rational. I would argue that the discussion is actually about something else altogether - the populist vote.

Private jets represent the indulgence of "the 1%". And isn't that just the ideal, visible exuberance to spark outrage and seek fiscal redress?

It happened in Switzerland two years ago. Government introduced a 'sustainability' tax for every departure of a private aircraft above 12,500 pounds. Levy between CHF 500 and 3,000 (about $550 to $3,300) for every take-off. This was framed as "well, if airline passengers have to pay carbon offsets, it's only fair that those who have the most contribute the most". And it was a popular argument.

Going after the rich makes good politics for some. And jets are a very visible way to do so.

PS: That piece of Swiss legislation is on hold following a national referendum. For now.


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 22:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
The arguments presented in this thread are very fact-based and rational. I would argue that the discussion is actually about something else altogether - the populist vote.

Private jets represent the indulgence of "the 1%". And isn't that just the ideal, visible exuberance to spark outrage and seek fiscal redress?

It happened in Switzerland two years ago. Government introduced a 'sustainability' tax for every departure of a private aircraft above 12,500 pounds. Levy between CHF 500 and 3,000 (about $550 to $3,300) for every take-off. This was framed as "well, if airline passengers have to pay carbon offsets, it's only fair that those who have the most contribute the most". And it was a popular argument.

Going after the rich makes good politics for some. And jets are a very visible way to do so.

PS: That piece of Swiss legislation is on hold following a national referendum. For now.


How does that money taken by the state save the environment?

Are they paying it towards some classified non energy using big air conditioners to re freeze the polar ice caps?


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 23:07 
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Crypto mining produces more CO2 than private aviation.

Private aviation is getting more efficient. Crypto mining CAN'T, it is designed to get less efficient any time someone comes up with an efficiency improvement. Mining crypto is proof you polluted.

Crypto is an ecological disaster far worse than private aviation. Private aviation delivers something of value, crypto really doesn't.

People in the future will laugh at the crypto investors today, spending $billions on some numbers made by an algorithm. How stupid is that?

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 23:18 
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China is commissioning two (2) coal fired power plants per WEEK. End of discussion.

This climate change BS is pointless and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "saving the planet".


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 23:20 
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I'm sure they'll get around to going after the private jets but for now they're going after my welder and cutting torch at my shop.

I got this little gem in the mail today. :grr:

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 23:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm sure they'll get around to going after the private jets but for now they're going after my welder and cutting torch at my shop.

I got this little gem in the mail today. :grr:

Dave



I’m surprised anyone who can leave hasn’t already left CA

Shame, beautiful state, good looking women and good food, but the mangement is kinda for crap


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 05:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm sure they'll get around to going after the private jets but for now they're going after my welder and cutting torch at my shop.

I got this little gem in the mail today. :grr:

Dave


Jesus.

Cutting and welding cannot possibly amount to enough “emissions” to matter.

What would they have you do? I guess the ultimate goal is ridding SoCal of all vestiges of industry. Do all the fab work in icky places, and ignore the losses of productivity, energy burden of transport from Ickyville and plain loss of industrial output?

Inmates. Asylum.

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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 08:34 
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Soapbox mode on.

To a first order, the journalists and activists who write on carbon, climate, etc., can't actually do any math at all, and therefore should have no say whatsoever.

Big numbers are hard to grasp, and the concept of "well, it won't really matter you've now taught me, but we should do it anyhow" pervades.

In perfect world only engineers and their ilk would write on topics that are intrinsically technology driven and math based. When it comes to climate, add in the cred of actually knowing what a finite difference equation/model is and what its limitations might be. Extra points for knowing the difference and effects of differentiating vs. integrating.

Soapbox mode off.


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 09:08 
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All of this presupposes that CO2 is harmful.

But CO2 is plant food. You want a greener planet? Simple, increase CO2. We are near an all time low in CO2 ppm, some say dangerously low. We can certainly afford it to go higher than it is today.

A warmer planet is a net positive for the world. Yes, sea levels rise and people will be displaced, but it will take place over decades and vast areas of Russia and Canada become farmable.

And what about being too cold? The last global cold spell, the mini ice age of the 14th century, was far more dangerous than a 2 degree Celsius rise over the next century.

When you then look at the costs of trying to minimize CO2 production, fruitlessly I might add, we find tremendous disparity in it's effects. It will dramatically increase the wealth disparity as those without affordable power will fall farther behind.

Don't get me started on the silly, pie in the sky, net zero dreamers. Barring dramatic and unforeseen technologic advances we will always be dependent on carbon for some of our energy. There is simply no way we can completely eliminate it and have reliable energy (unless we embrace nuclear - for some reason the anti-CO2 folks won't allow it, exposing their behind the scenes agenda).

No, a little more CO2 is not a bad thing at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 09:24 
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Username Protected wrote:

A warmer planet is a net positive for the world. Yes, sea levels rise and people will be displaced, but it will take place over decades and vast areas of Russia and Canada become farmable.

And what about being too cold? The last global cold spell, the mini ice age of the 14th century, was far more dangerous than a 2 degree Celsius rise over the next century.

No, a little more CO2 is not a bad thing at all.


When I was a kid, I was convinced (by the environmentalist of the time) that we were all going to freeze to death with global cooling from man made gases. Then we were all going to die from the holes in the ozone layer. Then we are all going to burn to death, from some academic predictions back then, some years ago. But with all this global warming, Utah and much of the west has had the largest snowfall in recorded history, and we will probably have widespread flooding this year. Funny how nature humbles the environmental scientists. Which is almost an oxymoron, because I have never seen an enviro publication that doesn’t smack of an agenda from the time it was funded. Real science doesn’t have an agenda. It starts with an honest question, hypothesis, and the real scientist is minimally emotional about the subsequent answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 09:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
Seeing all the biggest environmental extremists fly to all the environmental meetings in private jets, they can’t be that bad right lol



Seems like we’re not really very serious about it….

Attachment:
23413D19-0E51-4439-837B-6EE3DE18297E.jpeg


The low hanging fruit is to get more people working from home, but we aren’t doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 22:37 
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100% agree. I think emissions need to some how be divided by some gained value. Per person, per economic output, whatever. Otherwise its possible to argue that driving a Lamborghini is environmentally OK because there are so few Lamborghinis compared to many other makes of cars.

My preferred solution is to develop technology to make it all a non-issue. We got rid of animal waste polluting city streets not by outlawing horses but by inventing something better.

Username Protected wrote:
Chip,

This is the elephant in the room.

While it's true that aviation - private aviation specifically - emits a tiny fraction of all CO2, that's not an argument to defend it. Every human being also emits an even tinier fraction of all CO2. Does that mean that no one therefore need do anything? This is a collective issue, which will need to be addressed collectively.
Sadly, when billionaires show up at Davos to discuss the environment, they often fly in alone (or two or three) in a Global Express. Not exactly the perfect photo op. Highlighting such extravagance has become the mission of a growing number of activists, who take pleasure in tracking and publicizing the movements of Elon Musk, the Kardashians and others in what has now become a new "thing": Flight Shaming. Here's but one example:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ate-crisis

While a lot of these activists know nothing about aviation (they assume that because a jet flew a short hop, it was necessarily carrying a rich dude, ignoring the existence of test flights and plain old repositionings), they are quite adept at highlighting some disturbing contradictions. Bombardier and other manufacturers have already recognized this and have begun boasting how environmentally friendlier their new aircraft are. (And it's true: Since the arrival of the 707, specific fuel consumption has improved 1% per year. Doesn't sound like much, but when compounded over 60 years, it's halved or better.) The large fractionals and charter operators (NetJets, Flexjets, etc.) will be doing the same. Individual users and corporate flight departments need to get ahead of this, or - I am convinced - it will bite them in the ass. Does anyone remember the hoopla caused in 2008 when executives from GM and Chrysler flew aboard private jets to Washington to beg Congress for funds to avoid bankruptcy? That picture is still fresh in the mind of corporate aviation.

As others have rightfully said, credits are just a way of passing the buck. SAF will never be produced in sufficient volume to feed the world's airlines, corporate jets and private users - without causing huge collateral issues of its own. Batteries? Not for another 50 years, given present technology - at least not for transcontinental flights. I believe that aviation is bound to become one of the last bastions of large-scale petroleum use simply because there is no alternative. In the large scheme of things, this is perfectly OK, as long as we address CO2 emissions elsewhere where we can. But we must get ahead of the PR battle. Sadly, most owners and users are still ignorant of the issue or simply not addressing it. This is not good.


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 Post subject: Re: Private Jets and the Environment
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2023, 21:08 
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Username Protected wrote:

A warmer planet is a net positive for the world. Yes, sea levels rise and people will be displaced, but it will take place over decades and vast areas of Russia and Canada become farmable.

And what about being too cold? The last global cold spell, the mini ice age of the 14th century, was far more dangerous than a 2 degree Celsius rise over the next century.

No, a little more CO2 is not a bad thing at all.


When I was a kid, I was convinced (by the environmentalist of the time) that we were all going to freeze to death with global cooling from man made gases. Then we were all going to die from the holes in the ozone layer. Then we are all going to burn to death, from some academic predictions back then, some years ago. But with all this global warming, Utah and much of the west has had the largest snowfall in recorded history, and we will probably have widespread flooding this year. Funny how nature humbles the environmental scientists. Which is almost an oxymoron, because I have never seen an enviro publication that doesn’t smack of an agenda from the time it was funded. Real science doesn’t have an agenda. It starts with an honest question, hypothesis, and the real scientist is minimally emotional about the subsequent answer.


Particular in the 1930’s, the weather and climate extremes were much worse than anything we’ve seen so far in the 21st century. In terms of the worst landfall hurricane, the worst heat wave, the worst drought, the worst fires, and on and on it goes. If you look at the paleo climate record, you can extend even further back and see evidence of greater extremes.
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