28 Mar 2024, 22:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 26 Mar 2023, 15:05 |
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Joined: 11/30/12 Posts: 4006 Post Likes: +4410 Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: Interesting discussion. Seems like we're in a "post" Hi-Perf Singles kit era these days. . I'm guessing that the market for 200+ kt homebuilts is very small. 20 years ago if you wanted one you had to buy a kit and build it yourself. Today you can buy a completed plane and fly tomorrow. The market may be close to saturation.
_________________ Be Nice
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 26 Mar 2023, 17:50 |
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Joined: 01/23/13 Posts: 8012 Post Likes: +5717 Company: Kokotele Guitar Works Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
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I think it's the fast and 4 seat requirement that's the limiting factor here, but there are lots of influences in the kit options shrinking in this class.
#1 is insurance. Most of those fast 4 place designs that used to exist are expensive to insure, if it's available at all.
#2 is cheap airfare. It's tougher for a lot of folks to get their family to travel by small plane when it's often cheaper to travel by big plane. Most pilots only have 1 companion, if any (hence Van's decision to make the RV-15 2 place).
#3 is that, despite the "maker" movement, average people just don't make/build/fix stuff the way we used to. Three generations ago, none of us were very far removed from farmers and immigrants that had to know how to work with tools, and most boys got at least a rudimentary introduction in school shop classes if they didn't get it at home. Now schools are teaching kids to code and do other things instead.
#4 People work more than they used to. There are less people who have the leisure time to take on a second part time job to build a plane.
#5 There were never many successful 4 place fast kit designs anyway.
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 26 Mar 2023, 18:27 |
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Joined: 08/26/15 Posts: 9514 Post Likes: +8745 Company: airlines (*CRJ,A320) Location: Florida panhandle
Aircraft: Travel Air,T-6B,etc*
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Username Protected wrote: The ability to "make it your own" doesn't stop once a kit is built. You can buy one and modify it any way you want, even if that means tearing it down and rebuilding your way. The 51% rule only applies to the initial build; once it's signed off, there's no limit on how much you can pay to have done. That's essentially what RDD does with their LX7, they buy an E-AB Lancair and throw away most of it. By the time they're done the only things still "amateur built" are part of the fuselage and the data plate, everything else is built in a factory by paid staff. In theory, you could complete your amateur-built airplane, get all the proper signoffs, and then proceed to modify it to your imagination's (and bank account) limit. As I recall, certain major modifications require written notice to the FAA (redesign the wing of different engine, for example) but the FAA needn't respond or do anything; you have to then resume "phase one" testing with the modified airplane (the purpose of phase one is to test what is a de facto prototype airplane, at minimum risk to the public, which usually means avoiding populated areas and being confined to a geographic area close to your home airport). The twin engine RV-6 is a perfect example of that- the guy had an RV-6A, took the Lycoming out of the nose and put a nose cone there, put Corvair engines out on the wings, plus a few appropriate airframe modifications. Some paperwork and forty flight hours of testing later, he's got himself a really neat machine that is uniquely his own. The only downside to this one is the owner isn't here on BeechTalk! What I'd really like to see is a twin RV-6 but with the engines that go in that Sonex jet.
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 16:54 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2572 Post Likes: +2330 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: Something that's say, in the same ballpark as my Columbia 400? Except, without all the burdens a certificated aircraft has? How about a Lancair ES-P? Basically an experimental version of your 400, and pressurized. Only 5 were made, I'm told. I know a build shop that has one for sale. It was early in the build process last time I was there, I don't know how far along it is now.
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 29 Mar 2023, 14:38 |
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Joined: 01/23/13 Posts: 8012 Post Likes: +5717 Company: Kokotele Guitar Works Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
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Username Protected wrote: I was watching ABC’s “Wide World of Flying” from 1988, and they had a big segment about what a game changer the Glassair 3 was. Man, that was a sexy airplane. I always preferred it to the Lancair. Attachment: Glasair_N17.jpg
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 29 Mar 2023, 14:38 |
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Joined: 11/03/08 Posts: 14529 Post Likes: +22860 Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
Aircraft: A33
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Username Protected wrote: My bad - just an A&P is required.
It is getting a lot harder to find people willing to do this kind of stuff.
Not sure how comfortable I'd be in a EAB built by someone else.
Worth thinking about. depends on the kit/plans. Given some of the "craftsmanship" I've seen on planes mass-produced at vero beach, I don't give a 2nd thought to climbing into an RV, bearhawk, cub clone, etc built in someone's garage. Those planes are conventional in construction and you can inspect anything you might be worried about.
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 29 Mar 2023, 15:29 |
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Joined: 02/22/09 Posts: 2549 Post Likes: +1936 Location: KLOM
Aircraft: J35, L-19, PT17
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Username Protected wrote: I was watching ABC’s “Wide World of Flying” from 1988, and they had a big segment about what a game changer the Glassair 3 was. There's an estate selling two Glassairs. I just saw the ad on craigslist. https://longisland.craigslist.org/avo/d ... 36371.html
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 29 Mar 2023, 15:34 |
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Joined: 11/03/08 Posts: 14529 Post Likes: +22860 Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
Aircraft: A33
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Username Protected wrote: There's an estate selling two Glassairs. I just saw the ad on craigslist. https://longisland.craigslist.org/avo/d ... 36371.htmlneat. They might not realize what they have, if the 540 was intended for it then it must be a III. The challenge for "ordinary people" trying to buy those is moving the long single-piece wing. I know I don't have a trailer that will take it.
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 29 Mar 2023, 16:15 |
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Joined: 02/22/09 Posts: 2549 Post Likes: +1936 Location: KLOM
Aircraft: J35, L-19, PT17
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Username Protected wrote: There's an estate selling two Glassairs. I just saw the ad on craigslist. https://longisland.craigslist.org/avo/d ... 36371.htmlneat. They might not realize what they have, if the 540 was intended for it then it must be a III. The challenge for "ordinary people" trying to buy those is moving the long single-piece wing. I know I don't have a trailer that will take it.
I hadn't thought of that. You're right it must be a III.
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 22 May 2023, 14:32 |
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Joined: 02/28/13 Posts: 445 Post Likes: +75 Location: Spruce Creek, FL & Calgary
Aircraft: Lancair/TBM700
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You can fly at 319 knots TAS, with a quality build demonstrated with 3 builder awards, 940nm range plus IFR reserves, reliable Walter M601D with latest FCU upgrade, auto-start and many other features not available on more expensive aircraft. The number of kits are still plentiful and many are being launched annually and still being constructed.
The reason you don't need the kitmaker is that Lancairs are made with high-temp cured composites. They don't age, fatigue, corrode or have cycle limits. If you maintain the prop, engine and avionics the airplane will last longer than the owner. In fact, all these airframes are slowly being transferred to younger owners and they look new. This one is half the price of a new Cirrus, 140 knots faster and pressurized. There is another example up north where I live that has 1400nm range and "no touch" automatic fuel system similar to the TBM style, but better.
The great thing is they are all available with the latest Garmin avionics which contain incredible safety features, stability protection and other hands-free help for difficult situations plus the Garmin autopilot and servos. This particular EAB has op costs about 20% of similar certified aircraft mostly because everything is off-the-shelf or Garmin experimental pricing for avionics. Everything needed is available to maintain airworthiness and parts are far less than through "factory" sources.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/cwbVa38QDKQ[/youtube]
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 22 May 2023, 15:01 |
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Joined: 11/30/12 Posts: 4006 Post Likes: +4410 Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: The Glassair bit starts at 19:55.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/CyClPKP817k[/youtube] Does the landing at 22:00 look terrifying to anyone else, or is it just me? The plane seems extremely sensitive in pitch and lands absolutely flat. It's just a sneeze away from wheelbarrowing. Is this normal, or was someone showing off for the camera?
_________________ Be Nice
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 22 May 2023, 15:11 |
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Joined: 03/04/13 Posts: 4281 Post Likes: +3082 Location: Hampton, VA
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White lightning would be great, 4pax, 200+kts, and I think that’s off like only 200 something Hp There was a guy trying to restart the kit but he had some odd idea that we could increase the frontal area and still get the same speed Not sure what happened with all that
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Post subject: Re: Kit makers who are still in business? hi-perf singles? Posted: 22 May 2023, 15:19 |
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Joined: 03/23/08 Posts: 6908 Post Likes: +3553 Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx. Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
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Username Protected wrote: White lightning would be great, 4pax, 200+kts, and I think that’s off like only 200 something Hp There was a guy trying to restart the kit but he had some odd idea that we could increase the frontal area and still get the same speed Not sure what happened with all that Oh man that brings back memories of Will Mathews Race plane White Lightning with its unique pony motor supercharger setup. So unique on track. Tj
_________________ Tom Johnson-Az/Wy AssuredPartners Aerospace Insurance Tj.Johnson@AssuredPartners.com C: 602-628-2701
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