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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2023, 16:23 
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At this level, these aircraft are typically pro flown, this owner didn't want to fly it himself, he just wanted his pilot to be able to fly SP and he could fly right seat.

The reality is the vast majority of jets are flown with two crew.


Confused; if the vast majority of jets at this level are pro flown/dual flown, what is the impetus for a M3? It will be a $8mm jet that will have expensive insurance requirements for owner SP. Seems to me that the M2 is at about the economical limit of a new personal jet.


Most CJ2+, CJ3/3+/CJ4 are flown with two pilots, but I was actually referring to the fact that most jets require a crew and can’t be flown SP at all. The M3 could be flown single pilot, albeit expensive.
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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2023, 17:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
The reality is the vast majority of jets are flown with two crew.

That's being Captain Obvious since the vast majority of jets are required to have two crew.

But among the owner flown market, the vast majority of jets are single pilot flown.

These two markets are distinct and different and you can't paint them with the same brush.

Most of the CJP forum folks are single pilot owner flown. This varies from legacy 501s to nearly new CJ4s.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2023, 17:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
The reality is the vast majority of jets are flown with two crew.

That's being Captain Obvious since the vast majority of jets are required to have two crew.

But among the owner flown market, the vast majority of jets are single pilot flown.

These two markets are distinct and different and you can't paint them with the same brush.

Most of the CJP forum folks are single pilot owner flown. This varies from legacy 501s to nearly new CJ4s.

Mike C.


Owner flown jets... you know you're talking about a few thousand airplanes right?

Instead of making the case that everyone is like you, think of how lucky, talented and rare you are!
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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 18:09 
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Family and employees occupy them mostly, so that limits some liability as well.

Do you ask employees who travel with you to sign a waiver?

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 18:36 
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I don’t believe a waiver is going to help you at all if you hurt your employees.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 18:46 
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I’ve always thought the best strategy was to have enough insurance relative to your net worth that the lawyers will be happy with the payday.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 20:34 
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Do you ask employees who travel with you to sign a waiver?

No, but my liability is limited by the workmen's compensation laws in my state, which are fairly modest sums. Their injuries or death occurred when traveling under my employment.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 20:57 
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Do you ask employees who travel with you to sign a waiver?

No, but my liability is limited by the workmen's compensation laws in my state, which are fairly modest sums. Their injuries or death occurred when traveling under my employment.

Mike C.


I’m not an attorney, but I suspect Workman’s Comp laws are going to prove insufficient to shield you from the high-powered attorneys that chase plane crashes.

More non-legal advice you didn’t ask for and probably won’t take… I’d recommend not talking about stuff like this on a public forum.
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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 21:10 
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Why on earth would someone own a cj3 or cj4 and fly w two pilots? There are so many significantly more capable planes that are two pilots.

The CJ cabins are comically bad when compared to something like an Excel or XLS. Large humans just don’t fit well in CJ cabins. Try he also definitely don’t fit in the cj bathroom.

I get the desire to use two pilots, I just don’t get why you would not then lean in and get a plane with a better cabin, speed, range, etc.

Instead of an m3, cessna should cert am xls single pilot and give it fadec and autoland. That would be a plane worth spending money on!


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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 21:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’m not an attorney, but I suspect Workman’s Comp laws are going to prove insufficient to shield you from the high-powered attorneys that chase plane crashes.

Workmen's compensation laws exist precisely to define the liability of an employer to an employee if they get injured or killed doing their job.

Part of those laws are limits on the employer's liability in those cases.

Indiana Code 22-3-2-6:

"The rights and remedies granted to an employee subject to IC 22-3-2 through IC 22-3-6 on account of personal injury or death by accident shall exclude all other rights and remedies of such employee, the employee's personal representatives, dependents, or next of kin, at common law or otherwise, on account of such injury or death"

If there is a work injury, then the law prescribes the settlement and excludes all other means of compensation.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 21:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’m not an attorney, but I suspect Workman’s Comp laws are going to prove insufficient to shield you from the high-powered attorneys that chase plane crashes.

Workmen's compensation laws exist precisely to define the liability of an employer to an employee if they get injured or killed doing their job.

Part of those laws are limits on the employer's liability in those cases.

Indiana Code 22-3-2-6:

"The rights and remedies granted to an employee subject to IC 22-3-2 through IC 22-3-6 on account of personal injury or death by accident shall exclude all other rights and remedies of such employee, the employee's personal representatives, dependents, or next of kin, at common law or otherwise, on account of such injury or death"

If there is a work injury, then the law prescribes the settlement and excludes all other means of compensation.

Mike C.


Ok… if you say so!
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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 22:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why on earth would someone own a cj3 or cj4 and fly w two pilots? There are so many significantly more capable planes that are two pilots.

The CJ cabins are comically bad when compared to something like an Excel or XLS. Large humans just don’t fit well in CJ cabins. Try he also definitely don’t fit in the cj bathroom.

I get the desire to use two pilots, I just don’t get why you would not then lean in and get a plane with a better cabin, speed, range, etc.

Instead of an m3, cessna should cert am xls single pilot and give it fadec and autoland. That would be a plane worth spending money on!


Easy answer - because a second pilot in a CJ series will still cost FAR less than the operating cost difference of anything else that requires 2 pilots. Lears, while faster, are not that much bigger than the CJ tube.

We have multiple managed part 91 clients who want 2 pilots in the CJ2+ (or even CJ) at all times.

The XLS+ already has FADEC. It will NEVER be single pilot certified, nor would I want most owner operators flying around a 20,000lb airplane with up to 11 seats flying around single pilot.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2023, 22:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
If there is a work injury, then the law prescribes the settlement and excludes all other means of compensation.

Mike C.

If there is a work injury, then the Indiana law prescribes the settlement....

Anyone else see a potential problem here?

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2023, 09:41 
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Mike, I applaud and support you flying your employees. I think that is a good use of your airplane. But I would caution you to think that you are covered from a liability standpoint if you do have a crash resulting in injury or worse with your employees. No liability forms or state statutes are going to protect you. You need a shit-ton of insurance. Even a mediocre lawyer would find so many holes in that arrangement, coercion from the company directed towards its employees to fly on a dangerous small plane, instead of a safe commercial plane, single pilot operations when there are 2 pilot operations available, flying a plane not maintained in a Cessna corporate service center to save money.... etc. They will be coming after the pilot as well as the company that owns the plane, the company that contracts the plane if different, and probably the company that made the plane, serviced the plane, etc. I am not lawyer, but I am a physician that has been sued more than once (never lost) and have been on the legal side many times as an expert witness defending physicians. The courtroom is a zoo, and everyone feels for the "victims" and want to make it right for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2023, 09:52 
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I will tell you how crazy it is. I represented as a medical expert an intensive care doctor that essentially begged the family of a patient who was on life support with probably reversible disease, to given the patient more time, as he was pretty sure the patient was going to make it. This was well documented in the chart and with family conferences. The family did not feel that their family member would want to be on life support and made the physician remove the life support. The physician provided exemplary care for the patient, and per state statute was required to remove the patient from life support given the proper order of surrogate decision makers. The family then had "buyers remorse" after the patient expired, and sued the physician for wrongful death. I will not go into the lengthy details, but basically sued the physician for not going the extra mile of refusing the family's legal request by not convincing them to change their mine, by not invoking a medical ethics committee and by not trying to get a court order superseding the families wishes, to prevent the withdrawal of life support. The family won, and the award exceeded the physicians insurance coverage. I as well as the doctors legal team were flabbergasted. But that is the world we live in. It is under appeal.

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