24 Apr 2024, 07:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 27 Mar 2023, 15:34 |
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Joined: 11/15/17 Posts: 687 Post Likes: +350 Company: Cessna (retired)
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I think we did SFAR on the 406, not due to weight or pilots, but to get more seats.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 27 Mar 2023, 22:54 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: The Single Pilot Exemption came considerably later. The first SPE was requested in 1983 and first issued in 1984: https://downloads.regulations.gov/FAA-2 ... ment_2.pdfThat's a lot older than most people think it was. It was different than today in many respects. Cessna's request was only 5 years after the 551 was certified (1978). The SPE system is approaching 40 years in existence. That's a really long time and it means we really should migrate this odd ball thing to a CE-500S type rating. That would make a lot of sense. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 27 Mar 2023, 22:58 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: if things continue on the path we're on, the insurance companies will eventually mandate that all jets are manned by a crew. Meanwhile, a pilot such as myself, low time in type, flying a Citation V, single pilot, has no trouble getting insurance. It costs me less than my MU2 for a higher hull coverage. Bunches of other Citation pilots are flying single pilot, too. If you want to fly a jet single pilot, don't be scared off by Chip. I don't believe his crystal ball is working on this prediction. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 27 Mar 2023, 23:20 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7339 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: if things continue on the path we're on, the insurance companies will eventually mandate that all jets are manned by a crew. Meanwhile, a pilot such as myself, low time in type, flying a Citation V, single pilot, has no trouble getting insurance. It costs me less than my MU2 for a higher hull coverage. Bunches of other Citation pilots are flying single pilot, too. If you want to fly a jet single pilot, don't be scared off by Chip. I don't believe his crystal ball is working on this prediction. Mike C.
Insurance rates have increased dramatically for owner flown, single pilot jets… I’m surprised you don’t know this?
I’m not trying to scare anyone, just pointing out that even though we have new single pilot jets like the Phenom 300E and PC-24, the cost of insurance for an owner to fly single pilot is all but prohibitive.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 03:02 |
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Joined: 01/07/21 Posts: 304 Post Likes: +302
Aircraft: M20J/R, Sr22, SR20
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Is there any topic, any, that Chip and Mike won’t argue and disagree about?
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 07:55 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7339 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Chip/ isn’t that a function of hull value?
2% of a 2mm plane is a lot less money per year than 2% of a 10mm one.
Insurance doesn’t seem to have gone up any more than everything else in aviation. Hull value is a portion of it, but it’s not linear and insurance does charge a premium for single pilot, plus if you’re the owner, some carriers won’t write you at all. So that limits you to underwriters that will, at a less attractive rate. (I hope I explained that correctly, one of our insurance guys can clarify if I didn’t) There’s also steps in value that drive up cost, over about $3M seems to be a step, over about $7M another, and yes when you get north of $10M and want to fly single pilot, it gets really expensive. So, it is hull value, but it’s also single pilot and the insurance companies do charge owner pilots a higher premium. In my opinion, the insurance companies know they can charge a premium for owner flown SP because it’s cheaper for the owner to pay the higher insurance rates than it is to hire a SIC, and as Mike has pointed out, it’s not just paying them, it’s all of the hassle that goes with it. Insurance has gone up overall, but it’s not bad for typical situations, which is my point, when you go atypical like owner SP, owner flown or turbine transition, it gets expensive, mainly because of lack of competition for those customers.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 08:26 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Insurance rates have increased dramatically for owner flown, single pilot jets… I’m surprised you don’t know this? My insurance this year didn't go up hardly at all from last year. Under $12K/year. Owner flown single pilot. Not prohibitive. This actual data from an actual owner. Quote: I’m not trying to scare anyone, just pointing out that even though we have new single pilot jets like the Phenom 300E and PC-24, the cost of insurance for an owner to fly single pilot is all but prohibitive. Those are $10M airplanes. Anyone with that budget won't be deterred by the insurance premium, or hiring an SIC. That end of the spectrum is not representative of the majority of owner flown jets. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 09:30 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7339 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Insurance rates have increased dramatically for owner flown, single pilot jets… I’m surprised you don’t know this? My insurance this year didn't go up hardly at all from last year. Under $12K/year. Owner flown single pilot. Not prohibitive. This actual data from an actual owner. Quote: I’m not trying to scare anyone, just pointing out that even though we have new single pilot jets like the Phenom 300E and PC-24, the cost of insurance for an owner to fly single pilot is all but prohibitive. Those are $10M airplanes. Anyone with that budget won't be deterred by the insurance premium, or hiring an SIC. That end of the spectrum is not representative of the majority of owner flown jets. Mike C.
Under $12k is really good, assuming you have adequate coverage.
I think most folks are paying a lot more than that.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 09:38 |
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Joined: 11/07/11 Posts: 723 Post Likes: +412 Location: KBED, KCRE
Aircraft: Phenom 100
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Username Protected wrote: My insurance this year didn't go up hardly at all from last year. Under $12K/year. Owner flown single pilot. Not prohibitive. Mike C. Is that at a hull value of what you bought it for or a hull value of what it would cost to replace today? Our rates went up to cover the hull value increase but it wasn't substantially more. Liability limits stayed the same. Chip-
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 09:42 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 6318 Post Likes: +3809 Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: Chip your post is spot on - there is a massive difference between a legacy Citation being owner flown and a new 300E, PC24, CJ4 owner flown - massive difference. Plenty of capacity for sub 3m owner/flown jets to secure "reasonable" premiums in the market versus very limited capacity in the above $5m hull value segment owner/flown. Your thresholds are also fairly accurate in terms of where the market tightens on owner/flown risks. You are saying “owner flown”. Just to clarify, these are single pilot jets - if an owner hired a pilot who flew it single pilot, does that get the same insurance treatment? Or is it just “owner pilots” who get the higher rates?
_________________ -Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 09:49 |
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Joined: 03/09/11 Posts: 1727 Post Likes: +787 Company: Wings Insurance Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
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Username Protected wrote: Chip your post is spot on - there is a massive difference between a legacy Citation being owner flown and a new 300E, PC24, CJ4 owner flown - massive difference. Plenty of capacity for sub 3m owner/flown jets to secure "reasonable" premiums in the market versus very limited capacity in the above $5m hull value segment owner/flown. Your thresholds are also fairly accurate in terms of where the market tightens on owner/flown risks. You are saying “owner flown”. Just to clarify, these are single pilot jets - if an owner hired a pilot who flew it single pilot, does that get the same insurance treatment? Or is it just “owner pilots” who get the higher rates?
Owner flown - means the owner of the aircraft operating the aircraft in some capacity and insured to do so. A hired pilot would not be an owner. Professionally flown risks see more favorable insurance rates overall and typically higher limit options (depending on quals of course).
_________________ Tom Hauge Wings Insurance National Sales Director E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
Last edited on 28 Mar 2023, 10:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 28 Mar 2023, 10:52 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Chip your post is spot on - there is a massive insurance landscape difference between a legacy Citation being owner flown and a new 300E, PC24, CJ4 owner flown - massive difference. Exactly my point. Completely different ecosystems and markets. People who can't get owner flown insurance in a $12M PC-24 bear no reflection on those who are trying to do the same in a legacy Citation. Don't mix those two. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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