I think we did SFAR on the 406, not due to weight or pilots, but to get more seats.

The first SPE was requested in 1983 and first issued in 1984:

https://downloads.regulations.gov/FAA-2 ... ment_2.pdf

That's a lot older than most people think it was. It was different than today in many respects.

Cessna's request was only 5 years after the 551 was certified (1978).

The SPE system is approaching 40 years in existence. That's a really long time and it means we really should migrate this odd ball thing to a CE-500S type rating. That would make a lot of sense.

Mike C.

Meanwhile, a pilot such as myself, low time in type, flying a Citation V, single pilot, has no trouble getting insurance. It costs me less than my MU2 for a higher hull coverage.

Bunches of other Citation pilots are flying single pilot, too.

If you want to fly a jet single pilot, don't be scared off by Chip. I don't believe his crystal ball is working on this prediction.

Mike C.

Meanwhile, a pilot such as myself, low time in type, flying a Citation V, single pilot, has no trouble getting insurance. It costs me less than my MU2 for a higher hull coverage.

Bunches of other Citation pilots are flying single pilot, too.

If you want to fly a jet single pilot, don't be scared off by Chip. I don't believe his crystal ball is working on this prediction.

Mike C.

Is there any topic, any, that Chip and Mike won’t argue and disagree about?

Chip/ isn’t that a function of hull value?

2% of a 2mm plane is a lot less money per year than 2% of a 10mm one.

Insurance doesn’t seem to have gone up any more than everything else in aviation.

Hull value is a portion of it, but it’s not linear and insurance does charge a premium for single pilot, plus if you’re the owner, some carriers won’t write you at all. So that limits you to underwriters that will, at a less attractive rate.

(I hope I explained that correctly, one of our insurance guys can clarify if I didn’t)

There’s also steps in value that drive up cost, over about $3M seems to be a step, over about $7M another, and yes when you get north of $10M and want to fly single pilot, it gets really expensive.

So, it is hull value, but it’s also single pilot and the insurance companies do charge owner pilots a higher premium.

In my opinion, the insurance companies know they can charge a premium for owner flown SP because it’s cheaper for the owner to pay the higher insurance rates than it is to hire a SIC, and as Mike has pointed out, it’s not just paying them, it’s all of the hassle that goes with it.

Insurance has gone up overall, but it’s not bad for typical situations, which is my point, when you go atypical like owner SP, owner flown or turbine transition, it gets expensive, mainly because of lack of competition for those customers.

My insurance this year didn't go up hardly at all from last year. Under $12K/year. Owner flown single pilot. Not prohibitive.

This actual data from an actual owner.


Those are $10M airplanes. Anyone with that budget won't be deterred by the insurance premium, or hiring an SIC. That end of the spectrum is not representative of the majority of owner flown jets.

Mike C.

My insurance this year didn't go up hardly at all from last year. Under $12K/year. Owner flown single pilot. Not prohibitive.

This actual data from an actual owner.


Those are $10M airplanes. Anyone with that budget won't be deterred by the insurance premium, or hiring an SIC. That end of the spectrum is not representative of the majority of owner flown jets.

Mike C.

Is that at a hull value of what you bought it for or a hull value of what it would cost to replace today? Our rates went up to cover the hull value increase but it wasn't substantially more. Liability limits stayed the same.

Chip-

Chip your post is spot on - there is a massive insurance landscape difference between a legacy Citation being owner flown and a new 300E, PC24, CJ4 owner flown - massive difference. Plenty of capacity for sub 3m owner/flown jets to secure "reasonable" premiums in the market versus very limited capacity in the above $5m hull value segment owner/flown. Your thresholds are also fairly accurate in terms of where the market tightens on owner/flown risks.

You are saying “owner flown”. Just to clarify, these are single pilot jets - if an owner hired a pilot who flew it single pilot, does that get the same insurance treatment? Or is it just “owner pilots” who get the higher rates?

You are saying “owner flown”. Just to clarify, these are single pilot jets - if an owner hired a pilot who flew it single pilot, does that get the same insurance treatment? Or is it just “owner pilots” who get the higher rates?

Owner flown vs pro pilot flown amount to different premiums in my experience. Our policy specifies pro pilots only.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

Exactly my point.

Completely different ecosystems and markets.

People who can't get owner flown insurance in a $12M PC-24 bear no reflection on those who are trying to do the same in a legacy Citation. Don't mix those two.

Mike C.