18 Apr 2024, 23:51 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)  Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 00:39 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23622
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Ok, but that’s a Citation V… not a Phenom 300E… big difference. Yes, it is very different, my V can use much shorter runways and goes exactly when and where I want it to without having to scheduling with somebody else. Mike C.
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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 06:57 |
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Joined: 11/18/16
Posts: 83
Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: King Air C90
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Username Protected wrote: I just bid for a contract and compared it to their current (March 2023) 1/8th share fractional proposal. 100 hours in a P300 amounted to $640,000, or $6,400/hr. 1/8th ownership is easily $1M capital outlay, or about $1.2M. That's $80K per year cost of money, plus $640K/year to fly, or $720K. Clearly I can fly my own Citation V for way less than that. Mike C.
Correct. In 2019 the 1/8th capital outlay for netjets on their P300 was $1.2mm. If you flew 200hrs per year in that P300, total expenses came to just over $2mm. Also in 2019, you had several choices at that same capital cost to buy outright that would easily outperform the P300, so it was a pretty quick exercise to run those budgets. 100% of the time it was cheaper for the individual to buy their own plane outright once they got to 100hrs per year of anticipated/known flying.
With today’s inflated purchase prices, that becomes exceedingly difficult unless you are willing to look at old and/or very high time airplanes.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 07:30 |
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Joined: 09/22/21
Posts: 23
Post Likes: +110
Aircraft: SF50
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Username Protected wrote: The SF50 is assigned the same arrival and departure procedures as any other jet. Can you show a recent example? Give tail number and ate and we can see the flight?
My tail number (N88LG) is blocked on most websites, but maybe you can see it on adsbexchange? I don’t often fly into big city fields with turbojet only procedures, but try these:
If so, you will see …
1. All of my flights north out of Sarasota KSRQ (my winter base) get the SRKUS4 departure, which is a turbojet only departure. SRQ doesn’t have an arrival dedicated to turbojet.
2. A great example is KLAS, arriving on 12/16/22. I filed for, was assigned, and flew the RKSTR3 arrival. That was an incredibly busy day due to (2) major sporting events, both FBO’s were full of big iron, and I got an EDCT departing KROW. (I made a PPR reservation weeks in advance). I was vectored off the arrival once. On departure (12/19/22), I was assigned and flew the NIITZ3 turbojet only departure.
I can’t seem to find any other flights into fields with dedicated turbojet only procedures, but I know that’s all we got during my SOE training flights into big fields. ATC treats the SF50 like any other jet. If you need more proof to refute the info you got from SGOTI, I’ll find it for you.
EDIT: I wanted to find a bit more proof for ya, so I decided to look up a Verijet (charter) plane, as they tend to fly into B fields regularly. Try N31VJ, Tues Mar 14, from DEN to SLC. Turbojet only departure, turbojet only arrival. Look at all of their flights, and I think you’ll see that turbojet only procedures are the norm, rather than the exception.
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Mark Woglom
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 08:24 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23622
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Look at all of their flights, and I think you’ll see that turbojet only procedures are the norm, rather than the exception. Got it. A number of arrivals have target airspeeds of 250 KIAS and the Vmo for SF-50 is 250 KIAS, so that's tricky. You would have to ask for a speed variance. This also occurs on some departures, like KMEM AZONE, where you need to achieve 250 KIAS in the climb. Can the SF-50 produce a viable climb at 250 KIAS? Mike C.
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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 08:44 |
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Joined: 09/22/21
Posts: 23
Post Likes: +110
Aircraft: SF50
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Username Protected wrote: Look at all of their flights, and I think you’ll see that turbojet only procedures are the norm, rather than the exception. the Vmo for SF-50 is 250 KIAS … You would have to ask for a speed variance. Can the SF-50 produce a viable climb at 250 KIAS?
“Unable 250 kts at XYZ” is a common statement by SF50 pilots on arrivals/departures. ATC knows it’s coming, and they just reply “Roger”. No way we hit 250 indicated in the climb …. 165 kts is my standard enroute climb speed.
Honestly, ATC probably “should” put the SF50 in the turboprop performance category. I know of one operator that puts “treat us like a turboprop” in their remarks section. That said, now that there are so many SF50’s around, I think ATC knows our speeds, and simply adapts accordingly.
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Mark Woglom
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 09:12 |
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Joined: 08/16/15
Posts: 2895
Post Likes: +3603
Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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Username Protected wrote: Ok, but that’s a Citation V… not a Phenom 300E… big difference. Yes, it is very different, my V can use much shorter runways and goes exactly when and where I want it to without having to scheduling with somebody else. Mike C.
Wasn't it you that coined the phrase, I didn't buy a plane to have to schedule a human. That one cracked me up. Yeah I would rather fly my own C172 than have to schedule a charter. Might take a little longer, but my mental health would be better. 
I tried to schedule a charter to get my injured father in law, broken leg in a straight cast, back to Virginia. My plane was in the shop.. Shocked at the prices. Even an eclipse jet was 26,000 for the trip and required 1-2 fuel stops depending on winds with the required weight and luggage, his wife and his giant dog. A jet that could do it non-stop was insane. I ended up leasing an M600 for 19K round trip, and flew it myself. Much better experience for them I think.
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Chuck Ivester
Piper M600
Ogden UT
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 09:25 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23622
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Wasn't it you that coined the phrase, I didn't buy a plane to have to schedule a human. That one cracked me up. I called needing an SIC "chartering the human". You have all the annoying aspects of charter, expense, schedule conflicts, delays, etc. Having your own airplane and being able to fly it single pilot is the maximum freedom. Mike C.
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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 11:58 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23622
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: It's currently over $1.6M for 1/8th P300. 8 times $1.6M totals $12.8M, which is about $2M more than they actually cost list price new right now (and I bet NetJets gets a good discount on that). So they are making a pretty healthy profit on the sale price. That kind of money will buy you 100% of some other jets. I remain convinced that going frax or jet cards is more expensive than my plane. Mike C.
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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 13:03 |
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Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6784
Post Likes: +7324
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: It's currently over $1.6M for 1/8th P300. 8 times $1.6M totals $12.8M, which is about $2M more than they actually cost list price new right now (and I bet NetJets gets a good discount on that). So they are making a pretty healthy profit on the sale price. That kind of money will buy you 100% of some other jets. I remain convinced that going frax or jet cards is more expensive than my plane. Mike C.
List price is only if you order and wait until 2025, it's $13.5M to actually buy one now.
We did better than that for our client, but as far as I know all the other new airplane flips have been $13.5M
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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 13:52 |
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Joined: 03/09/11
Posts: 1727
Post Likes: +787
Company: Wings Insurance
Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
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Username Protected wrote: The insurance on a new Phenom 300E is more than $80k a year. Yes it certainly can be depending on limits carried - and it can also be more eye watering when "owner/flown" SP in a $12m ship (which $12-$13m is the top of the asset value SP certified jets). Have seen some crazy premiums in that market over the last couple of years with P300E's, PC24's and CJ4's.
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Tom Hauge
Wings Insurance
National Sales Director
E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 15:39 |
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Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6784
Post Likes: +7324
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: The insurance on a new Phenom 300E is more than $80k a year. Yes it certainly can be depending on limits carried - and it can also be more eye watering when "owner/flown" SP in a $12m ship (which $12-$13m is the top of the asset value SP certified jets). Have seen some crazy premiums in that market over the last couple of years with P300E's, PC24's and CJ4's.
Yep, our client was quoted $180k for SP/ Owner flown!!!
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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+) Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 15:53 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13586
Post Likes: +10972
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote:
Yep, our client was quoted $180k for SP/ Owner flown!!!
How many hours did he have? How old ? What limits? Did he live in Utah?
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Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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