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28 Mar 2024, 21:59 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 10:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Chip your post is spot on - there is a massive insurance landscape difference between a legacy Citation being owner flown and a new 300E, PC24, CJ4 owner flown - massive difference. Plenty of capacity for sub 3m owner/flown jets to secure "reasonable" premiums in the market versus very limited capacity in the above $5m hull value segment owner/flown. Your thresholds are also fairly accurate in terms of where the market tightens on owner/flown risks.



Owner flown and transition pilot is even saltier... the premiums are beyond eye-watering.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 11:09 
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Username Protected wrote:

Owner flown and transition pilot (WITH HIGH HULL VALUE JET) is even saltier... the premiums are beyond eye-watering.


Fixed your post Bill :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 11:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Chip your post is spot on - there is a massive insurance landscape difference between a legacy Citation being owner flown and a new 300E, PC24, CJ4 owner flown - massive difference.

Exactly my point.

Completely different ecosystems and markets.

People who can't get owner flown insurance in a $12M PC-24 bear no reflection on those who are trying to do the same in a legacy Citation. Don't mix those two.

Mike C.


Who's mixing anything? - stating the current insurance market conditions for owner/flown jet risks as outlined. And yes SP insurance for high value jets IS absolutely an impact area - which the lower value jet operators aren't being exposed to thus they feel nothing is amiss in this area - which is completely false. Upgrade Mike C to a 10m 300E and you'll see what I'm talking about :cheers:
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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 11:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
Chip your post is spot on - there is a massive insurance landscape difference between a legacy Citation being owner flown and a new 300E, PC24, CJ4 owner flown - massive difference.

Exactly my point.

Completely different ecosystems and markets.

People who can't get owner flown insurance in a $12M PC-24 bear no reflection on those who are trying to do the same in a legacy Citation. Don't mix those two.

Mike C.


I think you kinda missed the point of Cessna, Embraer and Pilatus can build jets and get them certified as SP all they want, but ultimately insurance will decide.

I do suspect that these same rate increases will make their way down to all owner flown SP jets… the only difference now is that there’s more competition for the sub $3M hull values.

Also, you’re making it sound like it’s either $1.5M or $12M when the high rates actually start at $3M… so pretty much any SP jet newer than a CJ1 is effected.

That’s most CJ1+/CJ2 and all CJ2+,3,3+,4 that’s a LOT of airplanes!
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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 11:42 
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Username Protected wrote:

I do suspect that these same rate increases will make their way down to all owner flown SP jets… the only difference now is that there’s more competition for the sub $3M hull values.



Possibly but there is good capacity right now as noted in the 2.5m hull value and lower (meaning number of insurers who can/will bid an owner/flown risk in the lower value light jet). So I don't see insurance challenges on the horizon anytime soon for the lower valuation jets noted. Obviously if we lose a few insurers or there is market consolidation here in the next 1-2 years that statement could prove to be false but I think overall I would have no qualms about moving into that light jet lower value space anytime soon. :cheers:

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Last edited on 28 Mar 2023, 12:22, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 12:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
Who's mixing anything?

Glad you guys have clarified the "no insurance for owner flown single pilot jets" is limited to the high end of the market.

Meanwhile, the majority of owner flown jets are not having issues with this. Insurance is going up across the board, but not particularly worse for owner flown jets in the moderate cost bracket and below.

I am enjoying the fact my Citation is much easier and cheaper to insure than my MU2 was. Very limited choices in that market.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 12:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
That’s most CJ1+/CJ2 and all CJ2+,3,3+,4 that’s a LOT of airplanes!

And yet there are a good number of owner flown airplanes in the group.

The legacy Citations are a huge number of planes, too.

Owner flown insurance doomsday is not upon us.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 12:23 
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Username Protected wrote:

I do suspect that these same rate increases will make their way down to all owner flown SP jets… the only difference now is that there’s more competition for the sub $3M hull values.



Possibly but there is good capacity right now in the 2.5m hull value and lower (meaning number of insurers who can/will bid an owner/flown risk in the lower value light jet) so I don't see insurance challenges on the horizon anytime soon for the lower valuation jets noted. Obviously if we lose a few insurers or there is market consolidation here in the next 1-2 years that statement could prove to be false but I think overall I would have no qualms about moving into that light jet lower value space anytime soon. :cheers:


My point is actually the opposite, if you want to fly your own jet SP, I’d recommend upgrading sooner rather than later. If changes do occur, as some companies leave the market, wouldn’t it better to be with them and hope to be “grandfathered” in?

This is especially true for transitioning, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems there are only two options for most transitioning pilots, lose one of those and it might be a problem. My impression is, it’s not as good as it was, but not bad… and isn’t likely to get better!
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Last edited on 28 Mar 2023, 12:26, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 12:26 
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Username Protected wrote:

My point is actually the opposite, if you want to fly your own jet SP, I’d recommend upgrading sooner rather than later. If changes do occur, as some companies leave the market, wouldn’t it better to be with them and hope to be “grandfathered” in?


Indeed yes - I have this conversation daily with mid 60's age folks that have jet fever. Don't wait until approaching 70 do it now and get some time/experience under your belt as it will be much less likely you are non-renewed than it will be to seek an 'initial jet transition policy' at age 70+.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 15:31 
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I turned 70 last year my insurance did not go up & I’m currently under the 12k a year premium.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 15:51 
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I turned 70 last year my insurance did not go up & I’m currently under the 12k a year premium.


Thats great - and not indicative of the market as a whole or indicative of what your situation might look like if you were just getting into your 550 as jet transition at age 70. I'd not look over the fence and stick with your insurer until they non-renew you a number of years from now. :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 16:30 
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Insurance rates have increased dramatically for owner flown, single pilot jets… I’m surprised you don’t know this?

My insurance this year didn't go up hardly at all from last year. Under $12K/year. Owner flown single pilot. Not prohibitive.

This actual data from an actual owner.

Quote:
I’m not trying to scare anyone, just pointing out that even though we have new single pilot jets like the Phenom 300E and PC-24, the cost of insurance for an owner to fly single pilot is all but prohibitive.

Those are $10M airplanes. Anyone with that budget won't be deterred by the insurance premium, or hiring an SIC. That end of the spectrum is not representative of the majority of owner flown jets.

Mike C.



Mike,

I’m interested to how you are getting such a low premium. If you’re up to it, I’d be curious to learn more if you want to PM info. I have about 2000 hours in 500 series citations and no where close to your premium.

Thanks,
Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2023, 07:31 
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Mike,

Would you mind sharing your secret with all of us?

I have (to my knowledge) one client paying less than $15k a year for insurance, and that includes multiple aircraft worth less than your V.

My client who is fortunate is a very high time ATP, with 121 experience in Q400’s and Saab’s, who is flying a King Air.

I think everyone here would benefit from you sharing how you accomplished this.

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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2023, 07:57 
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Mike has posted his insurance details before.

IIRC his limits were in the lower range for what jet folks thought was acceptable. (3mm maybe?) I never understood why insurance companies would write 20mm policies, for example, for any small aircraft. Underwriting risk does not seem worth the reward.


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 Post subject: Re: Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2023, 14:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mike has posted his insurance details before.

IIRC his limits were in the lower range for what jet folks thought was acceptable. (3mm maybe?) I never understood why insurance companies would write 20mm policies, for example, for any small aircraft. Underwriting risk does not seem worth the reward.


I believe Mike insures the hull for 900k (approximately his cost) and 1 million smooth liability. His premium is what it should be for these limits. I think underinsuring the hull (as the current value is likely 2x cost) is a mistake but that can fill it's own thread.


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