So I recently purchased a 500 from Mikes Gently Used Disposable Jets. Stepping up in ownership form a C340 and previous Lancair IV-P. The 340 really increased out trips and usability. Weather wasn’t an issue anymore, and so much more space. I was looking at MU2s when the wife gave a nod to going faster and farther, but a talk with Mike changed that. He said cool planes, but you’ll want a jet in a year so skip that. I don’t really have any operational experience with it yet so can’t comment on maintenance or cost of ownership. I can say insurance is 11k per year. They only wanted to give 1MM coverage.

The purchase was very smooth and easy. DPE cost for the type was $2500. I still need to do the SPW checkride. The way it works is you need to have the Crew Type and then do the SPW training and take the Type Ride again as single pilot. Hopefully will be able to get that finished up this week. I’m hoping to use it for a ski trip for spring break right after. Obviously a 501 would avoid this but that’s why the 500s are cheaper.

I wouldn’t consider buying one anywhere else. Joining the club Mike has cultivated has the benefits of lots of parts availability, and shared experience knowledge

As for what I bought….It’s a 1972 500. Fresh hots with OC HT wheels. Very nice interior that is almost new. Sierra configuration with the aft club seats moved aft to give decent legroom at the cost of aft baggage space and a double seat couch across from the entry. Sierra Classic Eagle wing for added range. Being in MN it makes sense, as most destinations are nonstop in the summer. And west coast depending on winds. It will be a few knots slower, but avoiding fuel stops and tankering ability is totally worth it. Pulling the power back and flying the AOA profile for max range should give it really long legs for a 500.

Up front dual GTNxi and Honeywell EFIS, 335R/345R, and ART 2100 radar. It is one of the few that were upgraded to the King KFC325 autopilot. I think it is the best autopilot available currently. The Garmin would be nice but I don’t see that happening. Eventually I’m considering using the JetTech STC to do single 600TXI install.

Spme pictures

Congrats on the purchase. I have to stop reading these citation threads, it's potentially damaging to my bank account.

Congrats Todd. What a beautiful airplane. I've been watching all these Citation purchases closely and they everyone seems to be very happy with both the airplane and Mike. I'll be joining soon. Safe flying!

Nice looking Legacy Citation.

I suppose that over 22 years of flying biz jets eased your insurability ?

Yes.

As a comparison a newly transitioned pilot from a 340, first jet in a 501 was about 23k.

I’m very hands on for MX and have previous jet time. So this thread will relate more to haw cheap can I operate a Jet. Not how cheap can someone else….
For instance I had 1hr total 500 time before I took the type ride. No formal training program. Wrote all my own procedures and checklists based on how we do them at work. Examiner seemed to really like them. If anyone is interested I can post the checklist and QRC.

I'd like to see them!

They aren't as disposable as they once were.


Same for me, $11K, only $1M liability. I'm medium time overall, low time in type.


Yes, a straight 500 is a super deal because of this. You do spend a bit more on maintaining the SPE and deal with other little nuisances (like international flying mostly needs a second pilot).


I'd be curious what you get as cruise speed. The Eagle II I tested (FJ44 plus Eagle wing) was hitting a brick wall about 0.64 M. Maybe the stock 500 engines just don't get there and it won't be an issue.


Do you have 12,500 gross? For the extra fuel, it would be helpful, but will make climb and speeds less when heavy.

The cold air of MN will make this perform nicely, though.


Interesting. Does this have any features lacking in the SPZ?


I still have hope Garmin will come to their senses and realize what a stupendous amount of revenue would be tied to a new legacy Citation autopilot from them.


Single installs can be done, but I think are not as economical as one might imagine due to needing cross check on attitude fed to the autopilot. With a dual install, you can really lighten up the plane and get rid of a lot of old stuff. I'd ask about that to be sure.

Mike C.

They aren't as disposable as they once were.


Agree. At for now people are realizing the utility vs price. And the V prices have definitely made the no disposable


Yes, a straight 500 is a super deal because of this. You do spend a bit more on maintaining the SPE and deal with other little nuisances (like international flying mostly needs a second pilot).


Yes. It’s probably at least 150l lower in price if it was comparable.


I'd be curious what you get as cruise speed. The Eagle II I tested (FJ44 plus Eagle wing) was hitting a brick wall about 0.64 M. Maybe the stock 500 engines just don't get there and it won't be an issue.

Speed won’t be an issue. It’s a flying speed bump no matter how you look at it.

Do you have 12,500 gross? For the extra fuel, it would be helpful, but will make climb and speeds less when heavy.

Yes it has the 12,500 gross. Climb at that weight isn’t nearly as bad as I figured. Up high it will slow or just stop climbing for sure.


Interesting. Does this have any features lacking in the SPZ?


It’s newer. Uses a FGC for correcting and intercepting courses as if it was GPSS. But does it even for regular VOR and ILS courses. Seems pretty solid on altitude hold.


I still have hope Garmin will come to their senses and realize what a stupendous amount of revenue would be tied to a new legacy Citation autopilot from them.


Single installs can be done, but I think are not as economical as one might imagine due to needing cross check on attitude fed to the autopilot. With a dual install, you can really lighten up the plane and get rid of a lot of old stuff. I'd ask about that to be sure.


Agree, but the architecture that I will need for the Garmin and King autopilot will require a Field Approval on top of the STC. I must retain one of the AM250 altimeters which would also function as ADC2. The Gad43 E emulates everything we crept the altitude hold oscillation signal. So to do dual Garmin I would actually have essentially 4 ADCs

Mike C.

Here are the checklists. If you have never used a QRC it takes a little explanation. They are for emergency and abnormals. Only what’s in RED are memory items. As long as it directs you to stay on the card you do not need the QRH. Quick Reference Card, Quick Reference Handbook. That’s the normal flight safety or Cessna emergency non normal checklist book. This one is slightly tailored to my configuration. The idea is to stream line and catch the things that will kill you, really break something, or get you most likely violated. Other things are contained in flows. If you need a checklist that says things like set cruise power, clear left, push start button and lift over gate at 10%, they are not for you. It’s a different way of operating. Callouts although not written are mostly nonexistent. Engines checked, airspeeds alive are assumed done and OK. Only if something is wrong is it called out.

I never considered my plane to be disposable. I have at least 5000 hours of utility left in it.


There is plenty of power at low altitude. You probably are a mid 30s and no higher airplane, though, at max weights.

There is a lot of airline traffic in the mid 30s so routing and vectoring can come into play during cruise. I find there is almost nothing in the low 40s.

Another way to get they range would be a 550, or even an S550 with tremendous range. If you are already into an SPE, it would be no more training work. Were those considered? Too expensive to acquire?


SPZ likewise, tracks with GPSS just fine. Does anybody track VORs these days? I haven't. It's GPS all the way, maybe an ILS once on final course, but that's it.


The Blackhawk (formerly Columbia) STC replaces all the ADCs with Garmin using a Skylight adapter box so I have only two (one for each panel). This means the ADC that generates my display is also the one the AP uses, so no issue with them being off to each other. This might have a better chance of working with your AP.

I believe the JetTech STC leaves in the Honeywell ADC for the SPZ. Not clear how that STC would be adapted to your AP.

In any case, the unusual AP setup will make it more complex to upgrade.

I'd love to have a GFC 600 option for my V. I'd drop another 100 lbs easily and the integration with the EFIS would be nice.

Mike C.

There are absolutely other airframes that would do king missions better. But as you like to say the invisible money spend on a much higher airframe CAPEX doesn’t make sense to save on a little TIMEX. Time expenditure. Mu usual load is just my family of 3, 2 dogs, mountain bikes and or snowboards. Sure I’ll do a few business trips but that’s not its purpose in life. I just hate the airlines, and for some reason still like flying a lot. Even a decent II would be 2x CAPEX.

The field approval is pretty much all set up and approved. The system architecture is actually very simple. No home made boxes needed. The King ADC that is normally with the autopilot is replaced with the AM250 altimeters which were needed for RVSM anyways. The 600TXI and GAD43E handle everything up to altitude capture. Then the AM250 takes over the alt hold function. I’m quite familiar with how it works as I wrote the 337 and its data package including the AFM supplement. I was able to come by approved data that already existed to put it all together. Total install cost using normal labor hours and fees is about 120k for single screen. Add about 40k to do a second screen. Almost 35k are the Garmin parts needed for the second one. So yes labor is the cheap part of adding the second.
And then there is the cool factor of the second screen. For a plane like yours that will have a much more likely chance of being professionally crew flown if you sell it, the second screen is a no brained. For a straight 500 probably not so much now days.
If I add the screen and do a paint job I’ll be all in at 600k. Not bad for what it is and does. Mike has that II listed at 950k and that would be the comparison. So that’s a good 350k in savings. I could open 2 more stores that I’m involved as a partner in and pay for 2X my yearly planned jet expenditures with that money. So you and I are on the same page for opportunity costs.
Remember this all about how CHEAP and I operate a jet. My experience will not be representative of the vast majority of owners. When we emailed earlier about hydraulics, I’m the one digging in the manuals and the one turning the wrench.

Yes, when fully loaded fl340-350 is probably all it will get. So yes, I’ll be bouncing around with all the RJs. Eventually as I burn off some money it will make it up to fl410. Either way it beats the pants off the 340. But my experience is starting at or returning to the middle of the country re routes aren’t that bad. Up and down the east coast they constantly re route and keep you low no matter what. And I can pull the power back, really extend the range AND be the slowest thing up that high next to a Chinese spy balloon.

Transport Canada has an interesting interpretation of that.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/refere ... nuary-1997

Yes for the most part anywhere within its tolerable range, and even many that are multiple fuel stops will allow single pilot in it. It’s cheaper because of the 500hr requirements.