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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 21:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
Definitely a consideration but how do the short body mu2s cabin compare to the 414 and 421 cabin? Don't some 421s have a potty? Any MU2's have that option. Potty is usually pretty popular with the women and for kids.

The kid in the back on the left in this pic (right side of the plane) is sitting on the belted lav. The curtain beside his right ear is the privacy curtain for when someone is using the potty. If you have 8 people like we do on this flight the rear two will have to move forward for a bit if someone needs the lav.


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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 21:48 
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If you are only flying 100 hours per year and most trips are less than 500 kn there is not difference between a 421C and a MU2.



Agreed and Id add the 414A Ram VII. MU2s are great planes too, I just wonder about insurance.


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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 21:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
If you are only flying 100 hours per year and most trips are less than 500 kn there is not difference between a 421C and a MU2.

Ah, yeah there will be.

Add a 100 knot headwind and see how the 500 nm trip goes in a 421 versus an MU2.

300 knots is meaningfully faster than 200 knots, even on relatively short trips.

Mike C.


I can get out of that 100kn headwind in a piston.

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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 21:54 
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This is the back of the 414/421/425. The potty seat is beside the curtain. The leather seat flips up and the 'potty seat ring' is under that.

The '8th seat', (in the prior pic it's the kid in the back, right side of pic, left side of plane) slides on the track on the 1st shelf in the pic below. We only put that seat in when we need it.


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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 21:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
I can get out of that 100kn headwind in a piston.

Have you seen the MEAs in the western USA?

And you can be in the icing and bumps if you do that.

In an idealized world, the MU2 won't save that much time on short routes over a 421, but in the real world, with headwinds, weather, icing, turbulence, it will perform much better.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 22:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
I can get out of that 100kn headwind in a piston.

Have you seen the MEAs in the western USA?

And you can be in the icing and bumps if you do that.

In an idealized world, the MU2 won't save that much time on short routes over a 421, but in the real world, with headwinds, weather, icing, turbulence, it will perform much better.

Mike C.



Yes and have flown them many times. Matter of fact I can say as many times as I've been IMC at altitude over the mountains in ICE, I can say I could have avoided most of it by being lower. Being at 25-30K sounds great but often puts you in the weather. 40K-50K is the real sweet spot.

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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 22:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Definitely a consideration but how do the short body mu2s cabin compare to the 414 and 421 cabin? Don't some 421s have a potty? Any MU2's have that option. Potty is usually pretty popular with the women and for kids.

The kid in the back on the left in this pic (right side of the plane) is sitting on the belted lav. The curtain beside his right ear is the privacy curtain for when someone is using the potty. If you have 8 people like we do on this flight the rear two will have to move forward for a bit if someone needs the lav.


Maybe the picture is deceiving due to the fact that almost all the passengers in this picture are children but this looks VERY roomy!

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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 22:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
This is the back of the 414/421/425. The potty seat is beside the curtain. The leather seat flips up and the 'potty seat ring' is under that.

The '8th seat', (in the prior pic it's the kid in the back, right side of pic, left side of plane) slides on the track on the 1st shelf in the pic below. We only put that seat in when we need it.


If you don't mind me asking, what do you use in your potty? I've heard and used all sorts of stuff. Never really found anything that's great.


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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 22:22 
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Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
This is the back of the 414/421/425. The potty seat is beside the curtain. The leather seat flips up and the 'potty seat ring' is under that.

The '8th seat', (in the prior pic it's the kid in the back, right side of pic, left side of plane) slides on the track on the 1st shelf in the pic below. We only put that seat in when we need it.


If you don't mind me asking, what do you use in your potty? I've heard and used all sorts of stuff. Never really found anything that's great.

https://www.amazon.com/Reliance-2683-13 ... g=btalk-20

These make it very easy to use.

In case the link goes bad - reliance double doodie toilet waste bags
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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 23:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
If you are flying shorter trips in the high teens the mu2 is not much faster and burns more fuel.

I guess it depends on what you mean by shorter, but why would you fly in the high teens if you had an MU-2? On a trip when the 421 climbs to 15k, the MU-2 will be at FL250.

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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 23:39 
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No doubt I’d love an MU2, and we have considered it several times. However it won’t fit in our hangar which is a non-starter for us. Also, despite the lower cost of jet-A and faster speeds, many other costs are higher from what I can tell like acquisition and insurance. I was told to expect 30k plus for insurance IF I could even get it. I pay 8 for the 421.


I suggest you give Tom Johnson a call regarding insurance. Hangar can be a problem, I couldn't fit mine in my T hangar either, you need a little over 20" in the front T section of a T hangar so the tip tank doesn't hit the back of the hangar before the door will close and I didn't have that, found another solution. The plane isn't that big really, only 33 1/2' long (short body) and the wingspan is just under 40'. If you know anyone who wants to buy a hangar at KHIO.... No idea what training in a 421 will cost (likely required by insurance), but it will be in the $6K range for an MU2 and is required by the FARs, I consider that a good thing, makes you a better and safer pilot. Acquisition depends on the plane of course, I sold my P210 for $5K more than I paid for my MU2, even swap for me. Don't give up on an MU2, in my mind they are well worth what they cost, you get an awful lot for your money.

Jeff Axel
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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2023, 23:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
Definitely a consideration but how do the short body mu2s cabin compare to the 414 and 421 cabin? Don't some 421s have a potty? Any MU2's have that option. Potty is usually pretty popular with the women and for kids.


The short body MU2 cabin is a little smaller than a 400 series Cessna but seats six comfortably, the long body MU2 is bigger. My guess is the 421 is quieter. My plane can have 950lbs in the cabin with full fuel. You can get a potty chair in the short body, but not really private, the long bodies have a potty in the back with an actual door that closes, quite a nice setup. The step up height in an MU2 is pretty low, very easy to get into, no stairs to climb, my 90 year old father can do it easily.

Jeff Axel
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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2023, 00:19 
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One thing to add about weather is climb rate, an MU2 will easily outclimb any pressurized piston twin, and with no concerns about engine cooling. This can really matter in icing as it lessens your exposure. Pressurized piston planes use vacuum pumps for pressurized air for deice boots. Not the most reliable source. The MU2 uses bleed air so as long as at least one engine is running, you have deicing. The engine inlets are heated by bleed air as well, and you have 2 200 amp starter generators to heat the windshield, props and pitot heat. The fuel is heated by passing thru an oil heat exchanger and Prist is required. I know which plane I would rather be flying in icing conditions. I live in the Pacific Northwest and actively do the most I can to limit my exposure to icing, but the MU2 is so much more able to deal with it and is much less likely to be flying in icing for as long in a climb.


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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2023, 00:21 
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Joined: 12/19/09
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Company: Premier Bone and Joint
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Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
I have a lot of time in a 421 because when I first joined my practice and we only had one King Air, I, as a junior associate, was relegated to the 421. I have now had a -10 short body MU-2 since 2016 and put about 250hrs on it per year.
The 421 has nose storage space that is a bit easier to use than the 2 rear compartments in the MU-2. The 421 is MUCH quieter than the MU-2. It does have a potty and my MU-2 does not, but if we are just traveling with family, a short 5gal bucket with a camp toilet seat, kitty litter and a screw top works fine. To be honest, we have almost never used that contraption, but having it along on the rear hat rack gives piece of mind to the pax.
The landing gear on the 421 is fantastic and it is easy to land very smoothly. The MU-2 has extremely strong gear but it requires special pilot techniques to make smooth landings which are not too hard to learn, but it's a harder plane to land well than the Cessna.
The 421 is about 80 to 100 knots slower than the MU-2. Just a random sampling of my last 6 flights (all at FL220) with ISA -4 to -19, TAS was 320, 316, 315, 313, 312, and 322, burning about 42 to 44gph a side.
BUT...by far the biggest issue that hasn't been mentioned much in this thread: Compared to any pressurized piston twin, the maintenance headaches for the Mistubishi are non-existent. Put fuel in and fly, put it away and repeat. Bring it to the shop for scheduled maintenance now and then. Having owned two pressurized Aerostars, there is simply no comparison. The DOC for the Mistubishi was lower than the Aerostar (more even now with higher fuel costs for Jet A)... but I'd actually pay much more to fly this plane than I do for the privilege of flying something that never breaks. It's loud, a bit frumpy looking, and not the easiest handling plane, but it gets the job done in bad snowstorms, on icy runways and 50kt ground winds. It is a utility/efficiency champion.

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 Post subject: Re: AMA I Own and Fly the Cessna 414A
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2023, 06:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
I have a lot of time in a 421 because when I first joined my practice and we only had one King Air, I, as a junior associate, was relegated to the 421. I have now had a -10 short body MU-2 since 2016 and put about 250hrs on it per year.
The 421 has nose storage space that is a bit easier to use than the 2 rear compartments in the MU-2. The 421 is MUCH quieter than the MU-2. It does have a potty and my MU-2 does not, but if we are just traveling with family, a short 5gal bucket with a camp toilet seat, kitty litter and a screw top works fine. To be honest, we have almost never used that contraption, but having it along on the rear hat rack gives piece of mind to the pax.
The landing gear on the 421 is fantastic and it is easy to land very smoothly. The MU-2 has extremely strong gear but it requires special pilot techniques to make smooth landings which are not too hard to learn, but it's a harder plane to land well than the Cessna.
The 421 is about 80 to 100 knots slower than the MU-2. Just a random sampling of my last 6 flights (all at FL220) with ISA -4 to -19, TAS was 320, 316, 315, 313, 312, and 322, burning about 42 to 44gph a side.
BUT...by far the biggest issue that hasn't been mentioned much in this thread: Compared to any pressurized piston twin, the maintenance headaches for the Mistubishi are non-existent. Put fuel in and fly, put it away and repeat. Bring it to the shop for scheduled maintenance now and then. Having owned two pressurized Aerostars, there is simply no comparison. The DOC for the Mistubishi was lower than the Aerostar (more even now with higher fuel costs for Jet A)... but I'd actually pay much more to fly this plane than I do for the privilege of flying something that never breaks. It's loud, a bit frumpy looking, and not the easiest handling plane, but it gets the job done in bad snowstorms, on icy runways and 50kt ground winds. It is a utility/efficiency champion.


Thomas,

What’s the insurance premium for the MU2? What limits can you carry with it? What are the typical pilot times/ratings are required?


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