Mike provides so much valuable information and is right so often...if I found him to be wrong one day I'd just chalk it up to proof that he's human and move on.

You two provide a lot of value...in different ways...maybe chill a bit and respect each other for being different. Talking louder and faster in "real life" or on the internet is a clue to take a step back. There's some good basketball on TV...

I’ll chime in on the DOF vs non-DOF issue for legacy engines. I’ve sold more JT15Ds than anyone on the planet in the last several years and I’ve never once had someone not buy an engine because of the name on the log book entry. In fact, the issue has never even come up one time. I don’t care what the name of the shop is; they’re not going to step up and buy you a set of high turbine blades if they randomly blow up.

All of these shops are using the same vendors there is not that big a variable with whoever is screwing the thing together.

This one is ChipGPT.

Mike C.

The PDF came from Pratts's website. You can see this in the URL address. If you looked at the file, then you visited Pratt's website.

https://www.pwc.ca/-/media/files/suppor ... ities.ashx

Never the less, I went to the Pratt website and asked to see all overhaul shops for the JT15D.

The result is that you see the Pratt owned shops in Clarksburg, nothing else in USA, and StandardAero in PEI.

So not only is there no Dallas Airmotive, there's nothing in the USA indicated outside of Pratt's own facility. Not even a marker in Dallas any more.


https://dallasairmotive.com/engine-solu ... aintenance

Still claims to be a DOF and operating under the Dallas Airmotive name.

In any case, your recommendation to use a DOF means extremely limited choices with extremely high prices. For the legacy Citations worth well under $2M, it's bad advice and you are better off going elsewhere. You will never get your DOF premium money back.

Mike C.

Once the paperwork is complete you’ll see StandardAero in Grapevine listed as the DOF shop.

You are correct about it not being a big deal based on the value of the aircraft.

To Tarver’s point, warranty is a question mark. We primarily use StandardAero or Prime and knock on wood, haven’t had any warranty issues.

If you read the warranty disclaimers, it’s brutal.

We have had warranty claim with Dallas Airmotive, on a set of 400 hour since overhaul JT15D-5’s on a Beechjet. It ate a rivet, so clearly their issue.

They were a pain.

On the HT blades, any warranty would come from Pratt.

The fact is that everyone is difficult to deal with.

I’d have the most faith in Prime from a warranty aspect.

These types of concerns are just part of the reason I’m not bothered by the Williams program cost, anything wrong with the engine is their problem.

Chip
I understand that if you are on the more expensive engine program, they cover corrosion as well. Is this “ no questions asked”, or do they review frequency of engine rinses?

I've never witnessed anyone ever get Dallas Airmotive to pay out on their "Airtight" warranty. Too many variables to weasel out of it.

They tried!

It took considerable effort on our part.

I’ve noticed they don’t brag about that “Airtight” warranty anymore!

Around 15 years ago we got a BOV actuator out of them on a JT15D-5D. Small claim,5K, but they did change it out under warranty.

I'll just chime in to say that I am glad people buy new airplanes so that I can buy used ones later for a good price.

Chip
I understand that if you are on the more expensive engine program, they cover corrosion as well. Is this “ no questions asked”, or do they review frequency of engine rinses?

Chip
I understand that if you are on the more expensive engine program, they cover corrosion as well. Is this “ no questions asked”, or do they review frequency of engine rinses?

TAP Elite was the lower cost program. They don't seem to allow that for new owners any more. It did not include FOD or corrosion.

TAP Blue adds FOD and corrosion protection. They seem to require all new customers to be on that. If the engines were on TAP Elite, you will pay a lump sum of all the prior hours times the difference in program prices. For example, an engine with 2000 hours might cost you $64K to get enrolled on TAP Blue if ti was on TAP Elite ($16 per hour times 2 engines times 2000 hours).

The contract has numerous exclusions, too many to list here. Here's one paragraph of it:

Engine Repair due to damage caused by Improper Use, improper maintenance, improper storage, abuse, neglect, hard landings (including crash landings), over-temperature, hot starts, pre-existing conditions, corrosion requiring component replacement outside of a Major Periodic Inspection or any other cause not within the control of Williams. Any damages, which are the responsibility of Williams, are limited to the Engine and exclude all other liability in tort or contract, including liability for consequential or incidental loss, damage or expense.

As to operator responsibilities, they do imply lack of doing the proper washes could be grounds for no coverage:

If the Engine is operated near a corrosive environment (e.g. salt water, pollution, etc.), Owner or Designee must comply with the recommendation for power plant wash guidelines in the applicable Williams International Line Maintenance Manual titled “Recommended Maintenance” and record in the Engine log. If corrosion is found during a Major Periodic Inspection and proper prevention measures were done in accordance with the maintenance manual, Parts are covered by the TAP program.

To say it another way, if you didn't do the things in the manuals, you could be out lots of money.

Williams is the final judge and arbiter of what their contract says or doesn't say, so their interpretation is all that matters.

Note that if you interrupt your payments on the program, and you want to restart, Williams requires you pay a lump sum covering the prior hours even if they had been paid for previously. This is the poison pill if you ever don't pay or go off program, all that supposed value you banked with payments are lost.

When you buy a William engine, you really don't own it, you rent it from Williams and they get to decide what your engine is worth. This affects your airplane value, too, of course.

The contract also gives minimum hours (usually 150 per year) and required cycle to hour ratios. The average cycle has to be 72 minutes (1.2 hours) flight time, which can be an issue if you do a lot of short flights. A recent thing is that Williams has a "low use" option where you pay for 135 hours up front as a lump sum, then you get 150 hours of use, and hours above 150 are charged at a higher rate. When you work out the math, the "low use" plan is cheaper for operators who fly 193 hours or less per year, but get more expensive above that. The standard 150 hour terms did allow one year of under 150 hours without penalty, the very first one under. So don't fly 149 hours one year, fly that extra hour somehow to avoid losing this benefit.

I've attached a copy of the contract as it was in 2020, they tend to revise it frequently, so it may be different now. The typical term is 5 years. The cost increase per year is NOT capped, they can arbitrarily raise it at will (long ago contracts had CPI indexes, not any more). After 5 years, there is actually no requirement Williams offer you any program at all. Additionally, Williams can change the terms at will every 5 years.

If you are considering a Williams powered airplane, get the engine serial numbers and email Williams to ask their status. Never trust what the seller says. There are also various terms that could subject you to higher fees and costs that you need to know about, for example, the prior owner could have selected a deferred cost structure that makes early hours cheaper and later ones more expensive. That will saddle you with higher costs.

Current rates are approaching $400/hour for a pair. Non trivial money.

There is a lot to know when you dance with Williams. It is like dancing with a scorpion. If you do everything right, it will be fine, but if not, well...

Mike C.

How much is an overhaul out of pocket for an engine? Is it more or less than the hourly payments of $800,000 ($200 x 4000 hours for TBO)? If you forgo the overhaul in favor of HSI is there a big hit at resale or is it becoming more of the norm for these planes? Total cost of ownership definitely gets muddied with all these variables.

Pratt has a similar corrosion plan called Platinum (as opposed to Gold) and they allow the same type of catch up payment if you want to upgrade to cover corrosion. It also covers the yearly rinse and a few other smaller benefits. We opted for it as the catch up payment was relatively minor since the plane had lower hours.

Chip-