BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 08 Mar 2023, 23:57

Username Protected wrote:

Maybe a dumb question but is there an age cutoff for Cessna’s parts program?

Here is the list of planes that Textron offers ProParts programs for:

https://txtav.com/parts/proparts

Citation Mustang-510
Citation CJ, CJ+, M2, CJ2+, CJ3+, CJ4+-525
Citation II (Unit 624 & Newer), Bravo-550
Citation V, Ultra, Encore+, Excel, XLS+-560
Citation III, VI, VII-650
Citation Sovereign+-680
Citation Latitude-680A
Citation X+-750A
Citation Longitude-700

No 500, 501, older II, SII. Looks like Citation X is off the list, too, just the X+, which is probably the newest pane not to have an PorParts option. Also seems to be missing Encore (has Ultra and Encore+ though, weird).

My V is eligible, 32 years old now. I would probably be shocked at the cost, however.

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I know the Mustang is still available, are the people who are waiting on intercoolers not on the parts program?

People ON the program are waiting, too, and they are pissed! They spend quite a lot of money on this program and then not to be able to get parts while their planes are AOG is volcanically frustrating.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2023, 09:34

Username Protected wrote:

Maybe a dumb question but is there an age cutoff for Cessna’s parts program?

Here is the list of planes that Textron offers ProParts programs for:

https://txtav.com/parts/proparts

Citation Mustang-510
Citation CJ, CJ+, M2, CJ2+, CJ3+, CJ4+-525
Citation II (Unit 624 & Newer), Bravo-550
Citation V, Ultra, Encore+, Excel, XLS+-560
Citation III, VI, VII-650
Citation Sovereign+-680
Citation Latitude-680A
Citation X+-750A
Citation Longitude-700

No 500, 501, older II, SII. Looks like Citation X is off the list, too, just the X+, which is probably the newest pane not to have an PorParts option. Also seems to be missing Encore (has Ultra and Encore+ though, weird).

My V is eligible, 32 years old now. I would probably be shocked at the cost, however.

Quote:

I know the Mustang is still available, are the people who are waiting on intercoolers not on the parts program?

People ON the program are waiting, too, and they are pissed! They spend quite a lot of money on this program and then not to be able to get parts while their planes are AOG is volcanically frustrating.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2023, 10:18

Username Protected wrote:

Supply of parts is never dwindling to zero on Legacy Citations. I think there are enough parts to last the next hundred years for these airplanes. I would be much more worried about them stopping making the phenom 100 than supporting a legacy Citation.

I’m hearing that used motors for the 501 are hard to find now. Any truth to that?

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2023, 14:05

Username Protected wrote:

I’m hearing that used motors for the 501 are hard to find now. Any truth to that?

In the Meridian thread Tarver posted that he's building some hot section only engines that will be available for someone if they need them.
viewtopic.php?p=3231042

I guess my question would be, outside of sucking a bird or someone taxiing into you, when would you need an entirely new engine? Tarver has posted that he's been doing HSIs regularly for a few years now - parts seem to be available.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2023, 14:07

Username Protected wrote:

And if 2 or 3 or 4 of those dozen do need the same part?

Any part with such regular need has vendors who make it, repair it, overhaul it, or STC a replacement for it. This is the beauty of the size of the Citation fleet, it is big enough to have vendors willing to provide parts for it. Some parts cover the entire line from original 500 to CJ3+.

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Does the aftermarket have enough demand yet to be reproducing parts?

In some cases, yes. For example, windshields from Perkins.

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And do they need Cessna’s blessing

No, they need FAA approval. Textron can't stop a vendor from making replacement parts.

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or does it not matter yet since donor planes are still so plentiful?

It depends on what it is.

For example, hydraulic pumps last so long and are so plentiful in the salvage market that no vendor will make new ones. I bought a replacement one for $200 and the salvage operator had 3 more on the shelf from recent airplanes. I had about a dozen salvage yards say they had them in stock, too.

There have been more problems lately with routine consumables like tires, filters, and batteries than there has been with Citation specific items. I have a set of replacement tires, my battery just tested at 101% (4 years old), and my engine filters are the wash and reuse kind, so I'm doing okay there.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2023, 15:01

Username Protected wrote:

This is one reason Textron stopped making Mustangs. They were a new clean sheet design which shared almost noting with the rest of the Citations so it was complex to keep spares. And, guess what, Mustang owners have a hard time finding parts (can you say "intercooler"?) despite being pretty recent when no legacy owner is suffering the same issue.

Mike C.

I'm feeling De ja vu, so my apologies if I've already called you out on this, but precoolers are an issue for a variety of airplanes, not just the Mustang.

Also, the 510 was a clean sheet design to replace the 525 line, a misguided individual made the decision to kill the 510 version 2.0 and the line, he decided it made more (bean counter) sense to slap a G3000 and blinglets on a CJ1+ and call it an M2.

If the 510 line had continued they would probably be building the Mustang 3 by now, which would be similar to a CJ2+ but with a comfortable cockpit, a G3000 with NO center pedestal so you can get can get in the seat without gymnastics (sorry but I'm feeling motorcross assaulted knees) with more range, a MUCH better cabin with ergonomic windows, etc. The decision to stick with the 525 series represents a 15 year step backwards.

Don't get me wrong, I love the CJ series, I love the M2, I love the CJ2+ even more! But, the Mustang is a better design... it's sad when the smallest Citation has a better cockpit than a CJ4.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2023, 17:27

Username Protected wrote:

I'm feeling De ja vu, so my apologies if I've already called you out on this, but precoolers are an issue for a variety of airplanes, not just the Mustang.

All recent airplanes.

Legacy Citations, no issue.

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Also, the 510 was a clean sheet design to replace the 525 line, a misguided individual made the decision to kill the 510 version 2.0 and the line, he decided it made more (bean counter) sense to slap a G3000 and blinglets on a CJ1+ and call it an M2.

This is revisionist history.

Mustang was a response to the VLJ movement, it was never intended to be a replacement for the CJ line. That's one of the reasons it was not built in Wichita, and why the CJ was not dropped from the product line at the time.

Mustang was more costly to build than a CJ. This was due to some design decisions which added complexity for no benefit. Example, the slightly swept wing for no aerodynamic reason, but makes the wing complex to build. The wider than tall windows lead to them being thicker, heavier, and more expensive (which is why pressurized planes have taller than wide windows generally). About the only really good thing on the Mustang was the door, and that DNA ended up in the CJ4 finally.

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If the 510 line had continued they would probably be building the Mustang 3 by now

No chance that would have happened.

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but with a comfortable cockpit, a G3000 with NO center pedestal so you can get can get in the seat without gymnastics

I have no center pedestal. I have Garmin EFIS and navigator.

I find my cockpit comfortable. I was worried about the control column from the floor, but it turned out to be a non issue. The no pedestal really improves things a lot.

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The decision to stick with the 525 series represents a 15 year step backwards.

There's a lot more to this that indicates it is not.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2023, 19:27

Username Protected wrote:

Don't see it.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Mar 2023, 21:14

Username Protected wrote:

Supply of parts is never dwindling to zero on Legacy Citations. I think there are enough parts to last the next hundred years for these airplanes. I would be much more worried about them stopping making the phenom 100 than supporting a legacy Citation.

I’m hearing that used motors for the 501 are hard to find now. Any truth to that?

Robert

Tarver, they're on to you!