Nothing about fixing the nose gear? The prop? The engine?

Mike C.

Nothing about fixing the nose gear? The prop? The engine?

Mike C.

I'm not so sure about the prop torque theory. The PT6/prop in the Meridian has a downstroke on the right side. I would think this force, when impacting the ground, would raise the right wing and lower the left.

Looking at that panel, is that a custom panel? It does look lower at the bottom than mine. Maybe Piper did something with the newer birds, mine looks a bit higher than that. Piper also widened the hip room a couple of inches, came up with higher density foam to lower the seats, extended the backrests over the wing spar (there is an STC to do this in older planes). Between that and reclining the seat, I am comfortable even with the seat 1 or 2 clicks toward the panel. Although I usually have it all the way back. Keeps the rear aft forward seat from reclining, so if I have someone there, I move up a little. I am 6'2

The cause of the never-ending pa-46 runway excursions, piston and turbine, is not a mystery.

If pilots do not neutralize the rudder pedals before allowing the nosegear to touch down, the nosegear steering will cause the airplane to dart sharply to the side of deflection. Either due to that deflection or an overcorrection, the aircraft will depart the runway on landing.

Compounding this issue, the pa-46 nosegear is a technically complex and delicate design. It is more prone to collapse than other simpler non-rotating nosegear assemblies. This was a design tradeoff to get the gear to fit where it needed to. In the case of a runway excursion or even extreme turning forces on the runway, this design is more likely to collapse, leading to expensive engine and airframe damage.

To fly a pa-46 without permanently modifying the insurance premiums of your brethren, you must be able to perform a crosswind landing, touch down on your main gear, neutralize your rudder pedals, allow the nose gear to touch, and only then use the rudder pedals for directional control on the ground. This, like so many airplane problems, is not an airplane problem. It's a training problem.

-J

Any design that you need special technique on is not a great design. The PA46 nose gear is not well designed, period. The results show that. Sure you can blame the pilot but why make something that needs special treatment?

The best aircraft design does not require above average skills.

This is my opinion and no matter what you say it won’t change. LOL I have debated this over and over. Just sharing my perspective on the PA46 nose gear. I have plenty of perfect crosswind landings in a PA46 to show I understand the issue. Never had a problem. But it’s not a great design. The amount of PA46 that have had nose heat collapse is crazy.

Yes they improved it on the M600.

Mike

Sounds so close to the situation I was in several years ago, where my partner landed and diverted off the runway to the left, collapsing the gear, prop strike, etc., no wing tip strike luckily. I spent the next 10 months repairing the engine & plane, it actually flew and landed better than before the accident, but he wanted to sell and we had no choice, so we sold it for 900,000. Makes me sick thinking what that 2006 plane is actually worth right now.

sounds like a reason for a mod that has a free castering nose gear or one like on the aerostar that is controlled by a steering switch.

Citation has traditional nosewheel steering by rudder pedals up to 20 degrees to each side, then it has a bungee to allow it to pivot up to 95 degrees. This protects it during towing and allows you to make very tight turns with differential braking.

So it is like a castering nosewheel in terms of tight turns on the ramp but like a regular nosewheel in terms of being steerable naturally when taxiing or during takeoff and landing.

I don't worry about people towing my Citation like I did for my MU2, and I don't have to disconnect the torque link like the MU2. I also don't worry about them not having he right tow bar for the dual MU2 nosewheel any more, either.

To make tires last longer, a big deal in with present supply chain issues, best not to pivot on one tire for the tightest turn. A turn where the wingtip is the center is about the tightest you should ever do and that keeps the inside tire rolling so it doesn't wear faster.

Mike C.

Many aircraft need a special technique. There are several C172 gear collapses and landing accidents per week. Doesn't seem to make the news. There are an average of 2 gear collapses and landing accidents per month in the most popular selling GA aircraft in the world, the Cirrus. There have been landing clinics and in transition training a great deal of time and energy is spent on landing the aircraft. Nothing wrong with the aircraft, but you have to be a pilot. In the TBM, prop strikes, and fatal go arounds were epidemic. Until a combination of airframe modifications, like strakes and efforts were placed in training by the OEM and owners groups to understand airspeed, gasp landing on the mains first, adhering to stabilized approaches. None of those planes are designed poorly, they are designed with compromises that require the pilot to understand the airframe. Poor technique for the bird had bent a lot of those aircraft. I don't have TBM experience, but all the others, I have never thought had an issue with landing. Maintain the the aircraft, fly the appropriate speed, and fly the aircraft into the roll out.

Funny how there was a rash of PA46 excursions, and then Piper came out with earth shattering SB's about inflating the tires to the spec in the POH. Make sure the plane is rigged according to tolerances in the maintenance manual. And the owners group came out with fly Vref, don't land with the nose wheel cocked. And the excursions almost disappeared. Funny how if you do the things that you are supposed to do, the accidents don't happen

As to numbers, The PA46 is one of the most active cross country aircraft flying out there these days. The fleet has over 6 million hours, and there are in the neighborhood of 300,000 PA46 landings per year. You read about 6 or so with landing issues in a year, is still a pretty small number.

I haven't seen any Meridian crashes where the gear was strong enough to do this without breaking.

No special technique is needed to avoid collapsing the gear on a 172.

I don't think you could get a Meridian to nose over off field under any circumstance It will stay sunny side up on an off field landing that occurs at landing speeds. It is quite long and longitudinally stable. On a field like that, probably better off to land with the gear tucked. Or it will look like this. Hard to compare a 2000 lb aircraft with a stall speed of 49 knots to a 6000 lb aircraft with a stall speed of 60 knots. Not many cabin class aircraft will land in rutted mud and not take the gear with them. No matter how strong.

That was my home airport. Piper bought that plane back from the owner (who had no insurance) and it disappeared. It sadly rotted outside for 2 years. You can infer what you want with respect to Piper's culpability.

The cause of the never-ending pa-46 runway excursions, piston and turbine, is not a mystery.

If pilots do not neutralize the rudder pedals before allowing the nosegear to touch down, the nosegear steering will cause the airplane to dart sharply to the side of deflection. Either due to that deflection or an overcorrection, the aircraft will depart the runway on landing.

Compounding this issue, the pa-46 nosegear is a technically complex and delicate design. It is more prone to collapse than other simpler non-rotating nosegear assemblies. This was a design tradeoff to get the gear to fit where it needed to. In the case of a runway excursion or even extreme turning forces on the runway, this design is more likely to collapse, leading to expensive engine and airframe damage.

To fly a pa-46 without permanently modifying the insurance premiums of your brethren, you must be able to perform a crosswind landing, touch down on your main gear, neutralize your rudder pedals, allow the nose gear to touch, and only then use the rudder pedals for directional control on the ground. This, like so many airplane problems, is not an airplane problem. It's a training problem.

-J