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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 11:24 
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I agree with the sentiment that acquiring a Pilatus aircraft comes with a significant upfront investment in both capital costs and maintenance. However, it's important to consider the long-term value that the investment can bring, especially for high utilization owners or those who prioritize the reliability, accessibility, and some of the unique missions of Pilatus aircraft.

Regarding the market trend of PC-12NGXs selling for more than King Air 350i's, it's a matter of demand and supply dynamics. The market price is determined by the forces of demand and supply, and it's possible that the demand for PC-12NGXs has been higher than that for King Air 350i's, leading to a higher price. All PC-12NGXs are sold through 2025 representing 150+ aircraft. Nevertheless, it's important to assess one's individual needs and budget to determine the most suitable aircraft option.

Overall, the Pilatus aircraft system has been designed to provide a high level of quality and reliability, and the Pilatus authorized service centers play a crucial role in maintaining these standards. Becoming a Pilatus authorized service center requires a significant investment for a company. Pilatus has stringent requirements for its service centers, including the provision of the proper factory tools and equipment, investing and maintaining sufficient inventory of essential parts, and thorough paying Pilatus to train the technicians. The quality of maintenance technicians is maintained by training them by Pilatus at the Pilatus completion center in Broomfield CO. These requirements ensure that the Pilatus brand reputation for quality and reliability is upheld at all of its service centers. Companies that are interested in becoming a Pilatus service center must be prepared to make the necessary investments to meet these requirements and provide the highest level of service to Pilatus aircraft owners.

John will benefit from these benefits while smartly sharing the upfront costs with a partner. Ultimately, the value of a Pilatus aircraft depends on the priorities and needs of the individual owner.


Very well said! I always have to say I'm not knocking the Pilatus, I love it. My role is often to play devil's advocate and point out the counter-points. Earlier in this thread it sounded like I was knocking the King Air.

To add to your point, Pilatus is a privately held company that is not mass-production focused, they have always built what the market needed, it hasn't been that long since Textron had 20 whitetails sitting on the ramp. I don't believe Pilatus has ever had that.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 11:26 
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The one I most recently was in charge of, it was a 10 minute flight to a service center

That costs you two cycles on the engine.

Hard to maintain the desired hour/cycle ratio of about 1 when that happens. It takes it takes a 2:40 flight to balance that out afterward.

The cycle life on turbine engines is not designed around a lot of short hops. You will end up cycling out parts early.

Mike C.


That might be an issue in a jet, one reason our clients in late model Citations use the Textron MSU's is to eliminate cycles. However, the Pilatus should only see the service center once or twice a year, so not a big deal.
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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 14:12 
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Range, speed, payload, number of comfortable seats... Yes, if you value versatility and the cargo door the Pilatus wins. But, it is still slower than the 350i and won't carry eight passengers in comfort.

Chip....why do consider the -12 more versatile than the -350?


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 17:09 
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Range, speed, payload, number of comfortable seats... Yes, if you value versatility and the cargo door the Pilatus wins. But, it is still slower than the 350i and won't carry eight passengers in comfort.

Chip....why do consider the -12 more versatile than the -350?


The Pilatus has flexibility with seating both in position and number of seats, the King Air is a double club only configuration. (except for high density seating, but that's a different animal) and of course the Pilatus has the cargo door!
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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 17:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Pilatus has flexibility with seating both in position and number of seats, the King Air is a double club only configuration. (except for high density seating, but that's a different animal) and of course the Pilatus has the cargo door!


Where you can land it also factors in, if you’re doing that type of flying


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 18:20 
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Username Protected wrote:

The Pilatus has flexibility with seating both in position and number of seats, the King Air is a double club only configuration. (except for high density seating, but that's a different animal) and of course the Pilatus has the cargo door!

I don't know this....so not disagreeing, but do King Airs not have the ability to have cargo doors? MedEvac, cargo types? Also..as far as seating, knowing that King Airs are flown in such various missions to include military types also...it would seem that seating arraignments would be many varied.

Like you...I find both KAs and PC-12s to be interesting aircraft and I'd like the opportunity to fly a Pilatus.


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 18:23 
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Runway usage at max weights:

Takeoff:
PC-12: 2485 ft (all engines)
B200: 2479 ft (all engines)
B350: 4057 ft (with engine failure)
C560V: 3160 ft (with engine failure)

Landing:
PC-12: 2170 ft
B200: 2074 ft
B350: 2981 ft
C560V: 2870 ft

No advantage of the PC-12 over a B200 for runway length.

King Air 350 meets different rules, so the numbers are not as good, but they contain more safety. Clearly the PC-12 has no takeoff distance with an engine failure like the 350 does, for example.

(Data from web searches, so may have errors, except C560V is from AFM).

Very few PC-12 are flown from other than paved runways. It isn't used as a $7M bush plane.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 18:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
Runway usage at max weights:

Takeoff:
PC-12: 2485 ft (all engines)
B200: 2479 ft (all engines)
B350: 4057 ft (with engine failure)
C560V: 3160 ft (with engine failure)

Landing:
PC-12: 2170 ft
B200: 2074 ft
B350: 2981 ft
C560V: 2870 ft

No advantage of the PC-12 over a B200 for runway length.

King Air 350 meets different rules, so the numbers are not as good, but they contain more safety. Clearly the PC-12 has no takeoff distance with an engine failure like the 350 does, for example.

(Data from web searches, so may have errors, except C560V is from AFM).

Very few PC-12 are flown from other than paved runways. It isn't used as a $7M bush plane.

Mike C.



I’ve consistently gotten a light PC12 shutdown in less than 2k, is that with a 60% factor?


And there are a decent amount of PC12 flying off field, our military, flying docs in auzzie, some shorter bush strips in africa, Canada and Alaska

Having the ability to go from a short dirt strip, load a patient or dirt bikes or plywood, and shortly after be comfortably in the FLs, that’s something not many planes can do

Now depends on the mission and your needs, but there is a reason the Pilatus commands the premium it does


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 19:01 
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Username Protected wrote:

The Pilatus has flexibility with seating both in position and number of seats, the King Air is a double club only configuration. (except for high density seating, but that's a different animal) and of course the Pilatus has the cargo door!

I don't know this....so not disagreeing, but do King Airs not have the ability to have cargo doors? MedEvac, cargo types? Also..as far as seating, knowing that King Airs are flown in such various missions to include military types also...it would seem that seating arraignments would be many varied.

Like you...I find both KAs and PC-12s to be interesting aircraft and I'd like the opportunity to fly a Pilatus.


Yes, you can get a King Air with a cargo door, but it is best suited for a cargo airplane. It isn't near the engineering feat the Pilatus door is. The King Air door is heavy, has an airstair integrated into it and has a tendency to leak.
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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 19:01 
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Username Protected wrote:

The Pilatus has flexibility with seating both in position and number of seats, the King Air is a double club only configuration. (except for high density seating, but that's a different animal) and of course the Pilatus has the cargo door!

I don't know this....so not disagreeing, but do King Airs not have the ability to have cargo doors? MedEvac, cargo types? Also..as far as seating, knowing that King Airs are flown in such various missions to include military types also...it would seem that seating arraignments would be many varied.

Like you...I find both KAs and PC-12s to be interesting aircraft and I'd like the opportunity to fly a Pilatus.


Yes, you can get a King Air with a cargo door, but it is best suited for a cargo airplane. It isn't near the engineering feat the Pilatus door is. The King Air door is heavy, has an airstair integrated into it and has a tendency to leak.

You can have a shop modify the seating, but it doesn't have user removable seating like the PC-12.
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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 21:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’ve consistently gotten a light PC12 shutdown in less than 2k, is that with a 60% factor?

Max weights, there is no factoring, as published.

Being light changes distances, of course.

Quote:
And there are a decent amount of PC12 flying off field, our military, flying docs in auzzie, some shorter bush strips in africa, Canada and Alaska

Sure, but rare for owner operators who pay for their own insurance.

Quote:
Now depends on the mission and your needs, but there is a reason the Pilatus commands the premium it does

Don't need $7M to land a turboprop on grass, plenty of choices there.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2023, 22:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’ve consistently gotten a light PC12 shutdown in less than 2k, is that with a 60% factor?

Max weights, there is no factoring, as published.

Being light changes distances, of course.

Quote:
And there are a decent amount of PC12 flying off field, our military, flying docs in auzzie, some shorter bush strips in africa, Canada and Alaska

Sure, but rare for owner operators who pay for their own insurance.

Quote:
Now depends on the mission and your needs, but there is a reason the Pilatus commands the premium it does

Don't need $7M to land a turboprop on grass, plenty of choices there.

Mike C.



You land many places you can take a 12 with a TBM and you’ll need a doggy bag for the parts

We had one that broke when someone put cocks too big behind it

You have much time in the Pilatus?

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2023, 20:53 
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Running numbers real quick at 15°c no wind, at max weight, I can’t get a landing number that high for the NG/NGX unless I don’t add in reverse.

But, I’d say a better way to view utility of these airplanes would be, what are the numbers for these airplanes, to take 6 passengers, 180lbs of bags, and fly 400 miles, with fuel reserves? Can they all do 2500-3000 runways? Now add in grass. (Yes, this happens often with the -12). It opens up so many more airports.

I will regularly land at;

TEB runway 6 and make G (1490’ with passengers, and very smooth).

Many times runway 29 at HPN and make L (that’s 700’, this requires braking as well without a stiff headwind).

MMU runway 5 and make E.

UUU runway 34, first taxiway 630’.

Fishers island runway 12, and make the intersection, 900’.

Landed Cat Cay, Bahamas, and turned off at the “FBO” ramp (the runway is 1950’), then departed with 6 passengers and us two pilots.

Done private grass strips, with just beta and very light braking and stopped in ~1600.

These are just some of the shorter ones I can think of. It’s really an impressive airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2023, 21:42 
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Sure, it lands on grass and has 4-5 more seats than a TBM. It’s also 50kts slower and burns at least as much gas. Different design, different mission.

I’ve put the TBM in grass only once. it didn’t end well. Small, high pressure tires. It’s made for 4-6 people (6 is sort of tight, it’s not great with strangers), 1200 miles, and luggage. But it is blazing fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200!
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2023, 17:26 
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Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Clearly mission matters. The PC-12 and TBM are great. But just as a counterpoint, my ‘74 -10 short body Mits cruises at 300-315, has 24” prop clearance with certification for unimproved strips, very stout gear, with good short field performance, a second engine for overwater flight, and it costs about 1/8th of a new TBM.
Yes it’s an old, loud airplane, but they had some pretty good ideas when they put these together.

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