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19 Apr 2024, 17:56 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 11:57 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
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Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
My hangar neighbor had a P337 that is exceptional. Super cool, but seemed very maintenance heavy. Can't count how many times i'd taxi by on my way somewhere and he was wrenching.

Engines and gear are not easy to work on.

Unfortunately he passed a year ago. He was a career airline guy and a check airman for Northwest. He scoured the earth for his 337 and only got to enjoy it for a couple years. But, in those couple years it was never ending maintenance.

His widow sold it to a couple local guys but i never see it fly much all...sad all around. It's based at KPAE.


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 12:04 
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Joined: 11/20/16
Posts: 6465
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Location: Austin, TX area
Aircraft: OPA
250hp IO540s on a normally aspirated Aztec are almost loafing.


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 12:07 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
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Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
"250hp IO540s on a normally aspirated Aztec are almost loafing."

Exactly, Don...and my TIO-540's have a 2000hr TBO. They thirsty though. ;)

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 13:19 
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Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
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Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
Don't underestimate an Aztec...and it doesn't need to come from the 60's.

I was referring to the design era, not necessarily the year of manufacture. The truth is the Aztec (and others) have roots in the 50s when the post-war thinking was that every other farm in America would have a 2600 foot strip on their quarter square, and many twins of the time were designed for 2600' of grass. Balanced field length wasn't really a thing in GA marketing as much as 50' obstacle takeoff distance.

I'd list the Twin Bo, the Commander, and the Aztec as the best examples of that era. For your stated mission, I would definitely check out an Aztec before a 337. Sure, they have quirks and they're not for everyone, but they match what you've listed so far. The 337 really is almost a two or three person airplane when travelling. My wife and I liked it just fine for that. We took a 30 hour trip with four people, and we were absolutely sardined into that plane. I weighed every scrap of paper we took and could never take on full fuel. You can get a baggage pod for the 337, but the cg of the pod isn't in a great place and you can't expect the pods to be weather or oil proof.

I didn't get an Aztec over the 500B because I put a very high premium on visibility from the cockpit and easier loading. The Aztec isn't hard to load (especially with the massive rear door STC) but nothing is easier to load than a Commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 15:19 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
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Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
Viz from a Commander cannot be beat.

If i had the hangar....I'd own a Commander in a heartbeat. I've got a little history with Twin Commander Aircraft.

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 15:27 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
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Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
Here's the P337 I mentioned earlier. Currently looking for a 3rd partner.
Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 15:44 
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Joined: 05/01/11
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Aircraft: F8L Falco
Since the OP specified grass strip ops, I'd vote for the Navajo over the Baron primarily for the larger nose tire (and mains) on the Navajo. Grass strips get holes in them and the bigger the tires, the better. Why Beech put little nose tires on the 30 and 55 series airplanes I'll never understand.

As far as 2600' strips, the Navajo will handle those easily under most situations. A -310 Navajo is a very under-appreciated airplane in IMHO. If you can find a 2-bladed prop model, they are the best; light and faster. The 325, eh, I don't understand why they built it. Having operated all three models simultaneously (310, 325 and 350 Chieftain), the 310 served us best overall. The extra room of the 350 barely justified the cost penalty.

George

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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 16:41 
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Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
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Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
Here's the P337 I mentioned earlier. Currently looking for a 3rd partner.
Mark

Riley Rocket 337s are the best 2-place pressurized piston twins available. :D :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 16:44 
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Joined: 08/02/09
Posts: 1340
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Company: Nantucket Rover Repair
Location: Manchester, NH (MHT)
Aircraft: Cessna N337JJ
Owning a P337 I agree with the opinions on here. As for maintenance it doesn't break or wear out parts any faster than other pressurized twin but some things are hard to get to.
Climb performance is worse than most other twins but to be fair with 450HP it is the least powerful twin out there with the exception of Trainers.

It cruises at 160-185 TAS when flown 8-20K feet burning 23GPH LOP. 1466 UL impossible to hit the CG limits without going overweight. 5th and 6th seats are a joke, it is a 4 place airplane.

Pressurisation is anemic compared to most twins at 3.35 PSI differential.

the only other twin I have owned is a 61 Baron with wide cord flaps and VGs and in my opinion short field is no contest. to get a Baron off the ground near skymaster numbers you are at or below red line. Will it do it? Yes.

Short field is really the only thing a skymaster is exceptional at. Deck angle is uncomfortable the first few times you do max performance take off and landings. Climb on one engine in a skymaster is anemic to say the least.


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 16:45 
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Joined: 08/02/09
Posts: 1340
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Company: Nantucket Rover Repair
Location: Manchester, NH (MHT)
Aircraft: Cessna N337JJ
Username Protected wrote:
Here's the P337 I mentioned earlier. Currently looking for a 3rd partner.
Mark

Riley Rocket 337s are the best 2-place pressurized piston twins available. :D :rofl:


You are thinking of the super rocket with turbo 520s

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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 16:50 
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Joined: 11/30/12
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Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
Riley Rocket 337s are the best 2-place pressurized piston twins available. :D :rofl:


You are thinking of the super rocket with turbo 520s

Yep, that's the one. My bad. The regular SkyRocket lost some payload, but not too much.
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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 17:26 
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Joined: 08/09/11
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Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Username Protected wrote:
Viz from a Commander cannot be beat.

If i had the hangar....I'd own a Commander in a heartbeat. I've got a little history with Twin Commander Aircraft.

Mark


You also need a bigger hangar Matheson! You of all people!

:D :bud:


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 21:13 
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Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
Post Likes: +4411
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
Viz from a Commander cannot be beat.

If i had the hangar....I'd own a Commander in a heartbeat. I've got a little history with Twin Commander Aircraft.

Mark


You also need a bigger hangar Matheson! You of all people!

:D :bud:

OK....What's Mark's history with Twin Commander?
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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2023, 22:46 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
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Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
I've been buddies with Bruce Byerly...Mr. Twin Commander, for a long time.

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2023, 09:57 
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Joined: 12/20/15
Posts: 184
Post Likes: +69
Location: AZ
Aircraft: MU-2 Solitaire
Lots of 337 talk on here. The rear prop is a vacuum and loves to ruin itself with rocks, bolts, and “stuff” getting slung into it. It would not be my first choice. I had a Robertson STOL 337 and it is good at getting airborne quickly and not flipping over when a motor quits and the list generally ends there. Also…I may have been micronapping but didn’t he say he didn’t have the space for a commander?


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