banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 13:51 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 15:21 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 07/09/09
Posts: 266
Post Likes: +153
Company: Bergland + Cram Architects
Location: Clear Lake, Iowa
Aircraft: PA-18-95, Gullwing
Five years ago, my wife and I welcomed our third kiddo to the world and decided to sell our S35 and take a short hiatus from going far and fast. Upon selling the Bo, we bought a Stinson Gullwing V77 and enjoyed low and slow for a while. During this time, we ended up with a super cub as well, so we can still enjoy real flying. This past summer we decided we were ready to go far and fast again so we sold the gullwing (thanks to Beechtalk) and are ready to buy the ‘right’ twin when it comes available. My goal at the time, and I haven’t fully given up, was to pursue buying a Cessna 337 or O2. Don’t ask why… I simply have been infatuated with them since I was a kid. I love their story and someday I WILL own one. It is proving nearly impossible to find a good one. So, our sights are changing (maybe).

We live on 2,600’ grass strip. Our kids are small (yes, they’ll get bigger) and most of our trips are short hops around the Midwest. Not uncommon to fly 60 miles to where my two brothers have grass strips, spend the day and return. Also, not uncommon to fly from our farm to our local airport (A whole whopping 4 miles…hahaha) to spend an evening with friends at their hangars. We are lucky and KMCW is home to us where GA is alive and very well! Speed is not a big priority, but the main reason for buying the twin is to go on a few long family trips a year where we will most likely be flying at night or crossing water. For this reason, two engines are a key priority, but having something that can get in and out of a 2,600’ grass strip is an absolute must…and our hangar isn’t tall enough for a 500 commander so don’t go there!

My older brother has a family of five and baron. I am certain a baron would do just fine on our strip, and I am familiar with their capabilities having been around several and knowing several owners. An opinion was recently brought to my attention that Navajos are also good short/grass field performers, and particularly the earlier short bodied 310 or 325. I was not aware of this as I have zero experience with Navajos. I really have no need for turbos (the non-turbo’d variants are basically extinct at this point) but my wife and kids would certainly enjoy the roomy cabin. And our little kids could become big kids and never outgrow the useful load. For this reason, it makes a Navajo appealing.

I’d like to hear from Navajo drivers (current or past) who have actually flown them into 2,600’ grass strips (or less). We would not need to do this at full gross unless it is of course not an issue. Our local airport is only 5 minutes from our house. Should we need to leave for a long trip at full gross we could easily depart from there.

Fuel burn, acquisition costs, insurance, are certainly all things we have considered, and I think I am aware of those realities. I am also fortunate to be surrounded by some awfully good instructors and examiners to help me with routine training as I know we won’t fly this regularly enough to do so without. Realistically we may only fly this 50 hours a year and maybe even fewer pending where trips take us. I know that is ridiculous, but it’s the truth, and it’s what we want to do.

So educate me on your experience flying Navajo’s or Barons into grass strips. I have read all of the book performance figures. It seems like each would be fine in and out, but I realize these are old airplanes, and my piloting skills vs. original factory test pilots differ, so please share first hand experience of doing so or not. I would also welcome knowledge and realities of operating turbo’s down low on very short hops (less then 30 mins in the air).

Much appreciated!
Andy


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 15:29 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/15/11
Posts: 899
Post Likes: +920
Location: Elk City, OK
Aircraft: B55 P2 & 210
You have one of the best Baron instructors in the country right there at your airport. It doesn’t get much better than that.

I don’t have any Navajo experience but I fly my Baron into a 3000’ grass strip pretty often. I am usually fairly light but it performs just great on grass. I wouldn’t be concerned with the difference in 2600 versus 3000 feet. As long as both engines are running it’s no big deal. If you have an engine failure right at rotation, I would think 2600’ is going to be a problem.

_________________
Sincerely,
Bobby Southard


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 15:47 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 07/09/09
Posts: 266
Post Likes: +153
Company: Bergland + Cram Architects
Location: Clear Lake, Iowa
Aircraft: PA-18-95, Gullwing
Username Protected wrote:
You have one of the best Baron instructors in the country right there at your airport. It doesn’t get much better than that.

I don’t have any Navajo experience but I fly my Baron into a 3000’ grass strip pretty often. I am usually fairly light but it performs just great on grass. I wouldn’t be concerned with the difference in 2600 versus 3000 feet. As long as both engines are running it’s no big deal. If you have an engine failure right at rotation, I would think 2600’ is going to be a problem.



Yes, I am lucky to have Doug as a friend and to live nearby. If he sees this, he will probably remind me that I should buy a PII and never look back...haha... And then he will realize he is going to be the guy I turn to to teach me how to do this regardless of what ship we end up with (if it is possible to do safely).

And yes, I fully agree with you. Out of our strip, with almost any twin, if we lose an engine at rotation we will be going straight ahead. Which fortunately for us is fairly clear both ends.

And for the record, I have a video of Doug in his PII flying it out of my brothers 500' mowed hayfield!! They are certainly short field machines, but also hard to come by.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 16:01 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 03/01/17
Posts: 1052
Post Likes: +615
Location: CA
Aircraft: V35, C150
A not-fast twin with cabin space, useful load, suitable for grass strips....

This has Twin Bonanza written all over it!
:)


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 16:02 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Check tire pressures.

Lower tire pressures are better on grass/turf since that translates to lower contact pressures on the soil and less propensity to rut when wet.

There seems to be a line about 40 to 45 PSI. Below that works reasonably well on grass, above tends to be worse and fewer days you can fly. The makeup of your field will have some effect, too, and drainage.

Is a single not in consideration? They aren't much slower, but they are a lot lighter and that helps on tire pressure.

My brother has a 3400 ft turf runway near Wichita and flies a PA24 Comanche out of it easily. He can go on all but the most soggiest of days. My MU2 could land at his field (65 PSI mains) but I had to avoid the runway after it rains. The rule was 24 hours for each inch of rain.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 16:05 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 05/29/14
Posts: 2879
Post Likes: +2932
Location: CEA3
Aircraft: PA24-260, C340 Ram 7
Username Protected wrote:

My brother has a 3400 ft turf runway near Wichita and flies a PA24 Comanche out of it easily. He can go on all but the most soggiest of days.

Mike C.


You have a smart brother too!!!

Murray PA24-260 owner


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 16:06 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/13/09
Posts: 5043
Post Likes: +6500
Location: Nirvana
Aircraft: OPAs
I've flown both the 310 Navajo, and the P2.

I am of the opinion that the P2 is a better short/soft field airplane, though I've flown both off grass.




Lots to be said for the Navajo, but it's more maintenance, and more fuel, for less speed.

_________________
"Most of my money I spent on airplanes. The rest I just wasted....."
---the EFI, POF-----


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 16:15 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 07/09/09
Posts: 266
Post Likes: +153
Company: Bergland + Cram Architects
Location: Clear Lake, Iowa
Aircraft: PA-18-95, Gullwing
Username Protected wrote:
I've flown both the 310 Navajo, and the P2.

I am of the opinion that the P2 is a better short/soft field airplane, though I've flown both off grass.




Lots to be said for the Navajo, but it's more maintenance, and more fuel, for less speed.


Stan,
Does 2,600’ present concerns to you in a Navajo? Does it demand piloting it on the verge of safety to do so? Curious if this is asking for a lot out of the plane and if it will always feel like one is just squeaking by? I want for it to feel comfortable and natural…realizing that may take some time.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 16:15 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/11/12
Posts: 1560
Post Likes: +809
Location: san francisco (KHAF)
Aircraft: C55 baron
Username Protected wrote:
Check tire pressures.

Lower tire pressures are better on grass/turf since that translates to lower contact pressures on the soil and less propensity to rut when wet.

There seems to be a line about 40 to 45 PSI. Below that works reasonably well on grass, above tends to be worse and fewer days you can fly. The makeup of your field will have some effect, too, and drainage.

Mains get 50 PSI on a B55, 55 on a C/D/E.

I love my C55 on grass. Recommend VGs.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 16:43 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/12/07
Posts: 2159
Post Likes: +446
Location: Colorado
Aircraft: '79 BE 58
Username Protected wrote:
My older brother has a family of five and baron. I am certain a baron would do just fine on our strip,
Andy


Ok, how does your brother's Baron do on your strip?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 16:56 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/20/16
Posts: 6406
Post Likes: +7871
Location: Austin, TX area
Aircraft: OPA
For 2600' grass, my choice would be a Turbo Aztec.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 17:15 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 01/01/18
Posts: 776
Post Likes: +907
Location: West Long Branch, NJ (KBLM)
Aircraft: 1960 Twin Bonanza
Sounds like a good mission for a Twin Bonanza - two nice ones in the FS section at the moment

_________________
CFII MEI


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 17:18 
Online


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 01/23/13
Posts: 8012
Post Likes: +5711
Company: Kokotele Guitar Works
Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
Why is a Twin Beech not in the running? Those big balloon tires do *great* on grass, and for a family hauler you will be hard pressed to get anywhere near its max gross weight.

:D

Image


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 17:23 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/16/14
Posts: 8632
Post Likes: +10457
Company: Forever a Student Pilot
Location: Colfax Washington
Aircraft: 1947 Bonanza 35
Andy, I'll never have anywhere near the Experience of these fellows Doug, Stan and the likes :pilot: :bugeye:

But I think the Allure of the Cabin Class Twin, has You settled on a Navajo :)

I think what you really want is Confirmation from the Real Pilots like Doug, Stan and a whole lot of others, that it can be done safely :shrug: :D

While a 55 or 58 Baron is a Beast, it will still be a 35 or 36 Bonanza as far as roominess :)

I recall that Jessie had a Navajo that was a Panther Conversion :scratch:

Just My .01$ worth :oops:

PS, I have Loved the Mix Masters since I was a Kidd too :drool: Not what I called them
I thought it was Disrespectful by my Dad and Uncle to call them that :beechslap:

Broke my Heart :sad:

_________________
Could You be Nice Sometimes?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Grass strips... Navajo or Baron... Educate me
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2023, 17:25 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/24/11
Posts: 500
Post Likes: +555
Aircraft: PA31, PA32R
The Navajo -310 will do very well out of a 2600’ grass strip at mid weights. Gross weight would be pushing it. There is no comparison in the cabin of a PA-31 and a Baron, they’re not even playing in the same ballpark. We’ve been very happy with ours for the past 20+ years, and have found it to be durable and relatively squawk-free.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.Marsh.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.AAI.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.