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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 10:58 
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Joined: 03/05/14
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Company: WA Aircraft
Location: Fort Worth, TX (T67)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza E33C
Username Protected wrote:
I'll ask the question from the perspective of ignorance.

There are thousands of 180, 250, and 260 hp Comanche's out there. It doesn't require Superman to fly them. Other than being more nose heavy, what's so different about the 400? Why can't you just throw 50 pounds (or a hundred or...) in the back and go fly it like a surprisingly powerful Comanche 250?


Nothing, we’re not talking about a space shuttle.


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 11:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
Other than being more nose heavy, what's so different about the 400?

Torque and power.

In certain regimes, notably nearing stall, going full throttle can put enough torque into the system to make it exciting. Everything related to torque, such as rudder input, is more critical.

I would want my instructor to have 400 time, or at least some high powered warbird time (like T6, T28, etc) so they understand power and torque effects.

That all said, a 400 is still a Comanche and it will fly fine with near turbine smoothness (particularly if the fuel injectors are balanced).

Despite the extra power and fuel capacity, it doesn't actually go that much faster or further than a 260. It is a bit of a unicorn, so you will need to be mindful of certain parts that are unique to the airplane like fuel cells, cowling, prop, etc. You won't own it as much as you will curate it like a flyable museum piece.

I have about 1000 hours in a 260B. Comanches are nice airplanes, good performers, but have quirks. Far too many of them end up gear up, too, for whatever reason.

If I needed to go back to the piston single retract class, I'd be looking for a nice 260B again.

All Comanche owners need to know Webco in Newton, KS, for parts.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 12:06 
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Joined: 06/02/10
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Company: Inscrutable Fasteners, LLC
Location: West Palm Beach - F45
Aircraft: Planeless
Honestly, a plane like a 400 is a simple ego trip like a 56TC. I'm not saying that in a bad way, but it's probably important to recognize it for what it is. It doesn't really add anything to the mission other than being what it is.

Even when they were producing these birds, it was the rough equivalent to super-mega-firebird-XLR...the old firebird chassis that is over engined, under braked and under handled. and there were probably a half-dozen other airframes that could do the same mission with less drama.

As someone pointed out, these birds require caretaking, in addition to maintaining. It isn't like you're going to call Piper and say "Yes, connect me to the Comanche 400 desk please".

As I said, if that's the program, cool, good on him, but understand what it is you're getting involved with.

Best,
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 12:32 
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Joined: 06/17/18
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Location: Alamogord, NM
Aircraft: PA-30 Twin Comanche
100-150lbs in the baggage area helps a lot when landing. No flaps is easier too when learning. Treat it like taildragger when flaring.

If you need to go around, only use about half throttle until you can get the trim caught up.


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 12:32 
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Joined: 11/27/09
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Location: Santiago, Chile (SCTB)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
I owned a Comanche 250 for 20 years before transitioning to the B55. I still regret selling her and the Comanche still is my preferred airplane to fly. The 400 is evidently nose heavier than the 250, but other flight characteristics and aerodynamics are very similar. It is a beast to fly and it is not unusual to observe 185-190 KTAS in the 400 (the 250 cruises at 155 KTAS typically). It suffers from some overheating if you are not careful with airspeed in hight performance climbs.

The NACA airfoil is extremely efficient but suffers from abrupt stalling, making landings a little less forgiving compared to any of its counterparts. It takes some practice to consistently land her like a gentleman. I only used full flaps when at maximum weight, as more than 10 degrees flap will induce you to land with the nose wheel first, a big no-no for Comanches as a porpoising is guaranteed. I would say the most complex part of transitioning to the Comanche are landings.

Pilot visibility is somewhat limited with the beautiful squared windshields. There is a STC to install Cherokee-like windshields, but that would deface such a beautiful design, in my opinion.

Whatever passes through the main door will not put the airplane out of CG limits provided the MTOW is observed. The plane is really a cargo machine if you don't have to take off with full tanks. My 250 had about 5 hours of autonomy, way more than my bladder.

It takes some time to get used to the stabilator trim, but after some time it is fun to raise your hand to the ceiling every now and then.

Emergency landing gear operation os also a difficulty, as once deployed manually for training you must have the plane on jacks to re engage the system properly.

Maintenance wise, the landing gear requires bungees being replaced on schedule. It is a cheap insurance as it contributes to maintaining the gear locked down. A worn bungee will increase the odds of a gear colapse in a cross-wind landing. Inspect the conduits that actuate the mechanism upon purchase, as they are a source of problems too. The stabilator axe is also a source of problems because of corrosion. It is an expensive fix compared to the rest, which is very economical to maintain.

Besides that flying a Comanche is a joy.... and very efficient too (I doubt with your friend's IO-720 though).

The Comanche has a wonderful owner's association called Comanche Flyer. It provided me with invaluable information to keep my bird, just like BT does.

Enjoy the flying.

Some pictures of my late bird:


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 12:40 
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Aircraft: Cessna 180A
It is always best to find the most qualified instructor for type aircraft flown. I know Skywagons and most single engine Cessnas like the back of my hand. Systems, flying characteristics, engine management, maintenance tips and lots of little idiosyncrasies. I have a modest amount of Beech, Mooney, and Piper time but turn away students to more qualified instructors in these situations. Instructing has become quite specialized. I wouldn't know the first thing about management of an IO720 engine. That alone would scare the bejesus out of me. I would prefer my friend get checked out by whoever is the best Comanche 400 guru out there. The amount of money we are talking to pay someone to fly out to your location and spend whatever time needed to be as competent as possible is money well spent. I am going to guess it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the yearly costs running this airplane and add an incredible amount of safety and reduced risk.

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Josh
1958 C180A O520


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 12:44 
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Joined: 08/02/09
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Company: Nantucket Rover Repair
Location: Manchester, NH (MHT)
Aircraft: Cessna N337JJ
I wonder what altitude the lines cross between a turbo 260 and a 400.


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 12:44 
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Joined: 02/21/11
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Location: Northside of Atlanta
Aircraft: RV-6 & RV-10
Nice looking Comanche. I considered buying into a partnership that had one. Several things ended that quest, but the ones that stood out were:

1) The visibility. That windshield looks very jet age modern, but I'd prefer more visibility.

2) The pimp-tastic interiors. Who thought bright red, electric blue, etc were good interior colors? Arrgh. ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 12:45 
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Joined: 03/13/18
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Location: KPDK; KSGJ
Aircraft: Piper Mirage
A friend of mine owned a 400 many years ago and I flew a few hours right seat. They are true pieces of Americana, i.e. one of those things that could only happen in the good ol US of A! :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 12:53 
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Joined: 01/10/18
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Company: Sugarbush Soaring Association
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Username Protected wrote:
1800 hrs of Comanches single and twin, the 400 isn’t just a plane and you figure it out in… you will significantly increase your chances of damaging yourself or the aircraft


Like Mike I worked for a Comanche “dealer” specializing in the whole line and flew many hours in all models. I agree with Mike - the model needs pretty specific knowledge and skills, nothing exceptional but different enough to cause problems for the uninitiated. The 400 has some real specific differences. It’s a beast and I loved. As a good CFI, one always has to know the aircraft and student.

Regards, Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 13:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
I wonder what altitude the lines cross between a turbo 260 and a 400.

Pretty high, oxygen altitudes.

My brother has a turbo 260C and to go ~180 KTAS is probably about 15,000 ft.

So if you want non oxygen altitude punch, the 400 is the Comanche, but get used to 20+ GPH fuel flows.

Think of the 400 like a 404 cu in V8 in a 1970s sports car. A lot of muscle, maybe too much, and easy to get in trouble with.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 13:32 
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My mechanic/instructor/ friend/ piper dealer, owned one for 40 years. Mainly flew at 11,000-12,000 for low power settings but good speed. Always kept the old original oil filter, he thought the new paper filters contributed to the high engine temperature. High temps and fuel burn kept the plane as high altitude cross country bird. He owned every Piper made, the 400 he kept till he died. Plane ownership is not about practically. 8 cylinders in an air cooled engine is not practical.


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 13:43 
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Joined: 12/19/11
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Company: Bottom Line Experts
Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
I can't offer much on the 400 but I have a fair amount of time in a 250. The biggest aspect to be aware of in the 250/260 is the landing as it has a laminar airfoil that stops flying rather abruptly. Speed control in the pattern and especially on final is highly important. You fly it all the way down to the runway and it takes only a small amount of flair for the perfect landing. Having the Cher 250 time I did was a huge help transitioning to the SR22 as they land nearly identically. Other than that, the Cherokee is a great bird and very efficient. I've pondered the 400 in the past but my concern was always finding a mechanic that knew the engine well as it's such a rarity.

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Don Coburn
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2004 SR22 G2


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 13:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
in addition to the Comanche flyers group you might want to check out Mooney space. M20Doc owns one and is pretty active.


He’s also got a good shop and maintains Comanches as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Comanche 400 advice
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2023, 14:03 
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Joined: 08/02/09
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Company: Nantucket Rover Repair
Location: Manchester, NH (MHT)
Aircraft: Cessna N337JJ
Username Protected wrote:
I wonder what altitude the lines cross between a turbo 260 and a 400.

Pretty high, oxygen altitudes.

My brother has a turbo 260C and to go ~180 KTAS is probably about 15,000 ft.

So if you want non oxygen altitude punch, the 400 is the Comanche, but get used to 20+ GPH fuel flows.

Think of the 400 like a 404 cu in V8 in a 1970s sports car. A lot of muscle, maybe too much, and easy to get in trouble with.

Mike C.


How fast could a 400 go at 15,000 and what would be the fuel burn?

Do you know if they will run LOP? If they can GPH probably would be that bad.

being the largest displacement in small piston singles it makes sense that it CAN burn a lot of gas but if you run a 260 at 75% and a 400 at 50% or about 200 hp would they go the same speed at the same GPH?

Again being a large engine it would make sense that it would be expensive to overhaul but not far off from turbo 540s. Airpower shows new IO-720-A1Bs are $205K and a new TIO-540AE2A found in a Piper Malibu are $196K. I know most people don't buy new engines but I wanted to make it apple to apples.

Getting its power from displacement rather than boost the power to weight ratio and power per cube is lower so I think it would be reasonable to think a 720 would live a longer life and less maintenance throughout its life.

What do you think?

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