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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2022, 09:22 
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Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
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I turned down a couple million for the frontage and west side of the airport a few years ago. Local car dealer was bought out had to relocate and build a new Ford dealership to keep their franchise. They built at the only other vacant site zoned commercial industrial and not flood plain about a mile south of us. The rest has pretty much filled in so if a new business wants to come in they need to buy one existing and tear down.

I figure if I sold it I’d just end up trying to buy another airport someplace else and would be right back to this point quickly.

Cost to move the whole operation even across the runway would be huge. I learned my lessons with building new buildings. Remodel only going forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2022, 11:32 
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Company: Flagstaff-Williams Dev. LLC
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Charlie, Im so glad that you're on top of this. I really am.

Im a small time developer and only work on my own projects that are below the radar as far as oversight is concerned. That doesn't mean I dont see things like this happening all the time.

Some if it is plodding bureaucratic ignorance and some is downright hubris. BTDT...I used to be bureaucratically impaired.

Keep up the good work. :)

--Bud



ps-- I too have sons that Im trying to teach how to look toward the future when it comes to capital and money. I've always felt, its the only way the average guy can get ahead.

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All my friends are here. I know this because all my enemies are dead. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2022, 14:42 
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Yes 76N Tunkhannock PA. We are pretty rural area but progress is pushing in. Checkout on google maps to see layout.

I’m lucky that the airport approaches are protected by natural features and flood plain areas to keep development down that would block the runway.

But to the side is a busy highway with recent development. Local gov is looking for 3M for the schools after closing all the outlying buildings to save costs a few years ago. But talking to others in the local government the shortfall may be as high as 20M.

Mike that is the angle I’m looking at because the hangars will never make the rent of a store front or even a storage locker facility per square foot.

Local county owned airports are very low on hangar charges to the north and west of me so that sets the market rate. Lower than my cost to even borrow money to build a hangar.

I am worried though because the property is good buildable level land above flood plain right next to super walmart and other development with a possible high volume road access. Great for getting appraised for the bank but not so good for a tax appraisal.

The airport and buildings really just devalue the property. Commissioners are the tax board and they have been pro airport so hopefully this goes ok. But I need to find the angles that allow them to save face as it is fair compared to others in the county if they do lower the tax rate.

I’m not sure how to figure it because I own a few airplanes and the airport as a business also owns airplanes which are in the same hangars as airplanes owned by others that rent space.
I don’t charge myself rent but does the value of that spot get figured in the income? Also I financed the new hangars through the owner of the king air but he does not pay hangar rent for his Kingair spot and 421(headed for scrap due to corroded wing spars). I have a Queenair (missing one engine) here tied up in bankruptcy not paying rent but I’m trying to buy it back (owned previously it for 20 years as jump plane and to use as backup for Kingair) so I don’t want to push it outside to watch it deteriorate. My kids and my father own three airplanes that I have hangared but they are not income generating. (Stinson 108, Piper Vagabond and Pacer) Plus various shops and hangars used for the airport shop maintenance business which we all work at. Business and personal get twisted together pretty much since we all live on the field. Hard to separate a building cleanly between personal and commercial use


"We are in a pretty rural area, but progress is moving in."

You mean progressives are moving in? This is way out of my wheelhouse, but the above suggestion of a good tax attorney is logical, and maybe AOPA could help with a specialized attorney recommendation. Other than that, looking at comparables for taxation in the area might be helpful.

It's so frustrating when these government agencies whose salaries we pay give us a hard time on issues causing us to expend considerable time and money to counter their incompetence and downright discriminatory behavior. They go home on Thursday afternoon to enjoy their weekend while people like you have a hard time enjoying anything because of the problems they are causing. Good luck Charlie.


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2022, 21:00 
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Location: Citrus County Florida
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I just got back to this and read your post. Sigh i am sorry you had to go through all that from the state. Other than a straight appeal of the taxes which has a process in PA. I read through the posts and did not see if you mentioned this, if you did I apologize. I can tell you from first hand experience if you go the appeal route, go big and be prepared for a fight. If you get some traction everyone else will then appeal their assessment using yours as a basis. I went this route with my R&D business in Illinois before i closed it down and told the state of illinois to get bent. I was successful and my property taxes were reduced by 35%, but the tax assessor was gunning for us every year after.

https://www.revenue.pa.gov/GetAssistanc ... fault.aspx

My only last thought - if this has been in your family for decades and has always been an airport or has had the landing strip there, you might want to start nosing around the requirements to get it listed as landmark status. It might help.

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Anthony Dennis


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 Post subject: $
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2022, 23:02 
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Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
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Thanks for the encouragement. Yes it is interesting the busiest days are the weekends so it’s always been a 7 day week operation here. You have to be available when everyone else is off work to get them flying. I’d go to the airport anyway so it’s not a problem. Good news is I’m already here just walk out the back door.

Just came in from cutting brush from runway ends with tractor and hydraulic mower arm. Steep slopes are tough but it needs to be done to keep it from growing up into the primary surface. Good weather so keep going into the night with lights.

I believe Van Sant airport north of Philadelphia might have gone the landmark status route. But not sure. Worth a look to see what happens with that title.

Every fight is about the same. Get caught off guard by something. Research and find all the info possible to see where they might not know their own rules. Find it is usually some cowboy in an office who is making things up and they don’t know what they are doing.

Then go to meetings armed with all the info I can find. I usually represent myself and it helps throw them off guard. Sometimes that disarms a local board compared to sending an attorney in to do the talking.

One Earlier battle was PA Labor and Industry for my 100LL tank. I filled out all the permits so I could install a 12,000 gallon 100LL self serve tank. The permit application was approved so could I install the tank and card reader pedestal system pending final inspection. Inspector showed up and said you can’t use that tank and not at that location! Then said no airplane could be within 100 feet of it. The 2 year ordeal started...

PA Labor and industry had taken over tank inspections from State Police Fire marshal. The tanks had changed from UL142 to UL2085 and then they stopped putting UL numbers on tanks all together. Both are double wall but one has cement between the walls. The venting size could be changed to meet the same test standards at the time. I forget the spec now but I bought the tank used and it was less than a year old then but things changed during the permit approval time to the inspection.

Wife and I showed up at PA labor and industry HQ. I think it was a 5 or 7 member board and 2 attorneys and 4 inspectors were there to fight us. Woman attorney looked at us and said “Only a fool represents themselves” Stenographer recorded the hearing and everything was submitted as evidence. I tried to show other airports in PA where you could taxi to the self service fuel tank but all were denied as evidence. I had photos of each airport showing runway location and tank location. SO I kept putting each one down on the table. Attorney was screaming Objection but I kept throwing them down. All 60 or so of them.

Then they wanted me to cut the pump off and gravity feed into a below ground tank 100 feet away to pump out of that. I said your own rules say you can’t do that and dispense out of it.

By the time we left after 3 hr meeting I had the board fighting their own inspectors and it got so heated they would never release the transcripts even to our local state representative. State rep said “ You have no idea the trouble you caused” I caught the head of labor and industry lying and they approved a system with identical tank to mine after ours was denied. They said it was an error and would be closed but I bought fuel from that tank the day before and had a receipt and photos to prove it.

The inspector was worried about sniper fire and that a semi truck would hit the tank. It’s on the opposite side of the hangars from the highway.

About 1/2 way through the hearing. Their attorney slipped up and said there was a permit filed. Board chairman asked to see the permit. Then said “So many people come here after getting caught building something and trying to hide it. He told you exactly what he was going to install and was issued a permit” She said “but it was pending final inspection” He said “That’s a F@#& Trap and you know it!!” Then things really got interesting. Inspector took one of the board members and was trying to make a deal in the corner. I complained saying. This is a recorded hearing they can’t be having a discussion off record over there! Turns out the rule change for the tank was not on the books yet but was sent to inspectors in an “inter office memo” So I said How am I supposed to get a copy of a Labor and Industry memo when applying for a permit?

It ended up they said do you want a ruling in the mail and I said no I want it right now. So the gavel hit and they approved it. Vote was 100% positive. 1/2 of the board went down the hall with the inspectors and attorneys. Other 1/2 stayed to talk to my wife and I .

Sadly in the last min as part of the deal we had to put barrier pipes around the tank 8 feet high and 4 feet in the ground filled with concrete and tied together on top. But at least I could use the tank. I call it my elephant mating cage. No semi will get in there now. Makes it a real pain to get the tanker close enough to fill the tank. Plus no equipment can fit between the pipes so anything inside has to be done by hand.

The inspector made me change to a 100ft hose instead of 75’ hose. Of course ground and fuel hose then did not fit the reels. He would also not allow me to have any credit card signs. “we don’t want just anyone showing up here to fuel their airplane. This tank is only for people you have schooled on use of key cards you issue” You can’t fuel an airplane closer than 100’ to the tank.

Turns out in the state of PA you can’t have an unattended fuel station. SO every self serve tank setup at an airport in PA is illegal if nobody is there 24 hrs a day. And yes 100’ I believe was correct at that time. I asked the Bureau of Aviation to get a clarification of this from PA Labor and Industry. Kept asking and did not get an answer.

They finally said they would not ask the question because “We might get an answer we don’t want to hear”. There are many more details I’ve forgotten to that saga but it’s just how it works out with these agencies.


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2022, 23:15 
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Joined: 11/30/10
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Company: Flagstaff-Williams Dev. LLC
Location: KCMR
Aircraft: 1965 310J
How is it possible that the BOD for our HOA is working at the PA labor and industry HQ??!!

_________________
All my friends are here. I know this because all my enemies are dead. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2022, 08:48 
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Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
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Maybe it’s like the Matrix and “Inspector Smith” is everywhere?


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 Post subject: Re: $
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2022, 19:50 
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Joined: 06/01/16
Posts: 453
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Location: Citrus County Florida
Aircraft: Shopping
Username Protected wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement. Yes it is interesting the busiest days are the weekends so it’s always been a 7 day week operation here. You have to be available when everyone else is off work to get them flying. I’d go to the airport anyway so it’s not a problem. Good news is I’m already here just walk out the back door.

Just came in from cutting brush from runway ends with tractor and hydraulic mower arm. Steep slopes are tough but it needs to be done to keep it from growing up into the primary surface. Good weather so keep going into the night with lights.

I believe Van Sant airport north of Philadelphia might have gone the landmark status route. But not sure. Worth a look to see what happens with that title.

Every fight is about the same. Get caught off guard by something. Research and find all the info possible to see where they might not know their own rules. Find it is usually some cowboy in an office who is making things up and they don’t know what they are doing.

Then go to meetings armed with all the info I can find. I usually represent myself and it helps throw them off guard. Sometimes that disarms a local board compared to sending an attorney in to do the talking.

One Earlier battle was PA Labor and Industry for my 100LL tank. I filled out all the permits so I could install a 12,000 gallon 100LL self serve tank. The permit application was approved so could I install the tank and card reader pedestal system pending final inspection. Inspector showed up and said you can’t use that tank and not at that location! Then said no airplane could be within 100 feet of it. The 2 year ordeal started...

PA Labor and industry had taken over tank inspections from State Police Fire marshal. The tanks had changed from UL142 to UL2085 and then they stopped putting UL numbers on tanks all together. Both are double wall but one has cement between the walls. The venting size could be changed to meet the same test standards at the time. I forget the spec now but I bought the tank used and it was less than a year old then but things changed during the permit approval time to the inspection.

Wife and I showed up at PA labor and industry HQ. I think it was a 5 or 7 member board and 2 attorneys and 4 inspectors were there to fight us. Woman attorney looked at us and said “Only a fool represents themselves” Stenographer recorded the hearing and everything was submitted as evidence. I tried to show other airports in PA where you could taxi to the self service fuel tank but all were denied as evidence. I had photos of each airport showing runway location and tank location. SO I kept putting each one down on the table. Attorney was screaming Objection but I kept throwing them down. All 60 or so of them.

Then they wanted me to cut the pump off and gravity feed into a below ground tank 100 feet away to pump out of that. I said your own rules say you can’t do that and dispense out of it.

By the time we left after 3 hr meeting I had the board fighting their own inspectors and it got so heated they would never release the transcripts even to our local state representative. State rep said “ You have no idea the trouble you caused” I caught the head of labor and industry lying and they approved a system with identical tank to mine after ours was denied. They said it was an error and would be closed but I bought fuel from that tank the day before and had a receipt and photos to prove it.

The inspector was worried about sniper fire and that a semi truck would hit the tank. It’s on the opposite side of the hangars from the highway.

About 1/2 way through the hearing. Their attorney slipped up and said there was a permit filed. Board chairman asked to see the permit. Then said “So many people come here after getting caught building something and trying to hide it. He told you exactly what he was going to install and was issued a permit” She said “but it was pending final inspection” He said “That’s a F@#& Trap and you know it!!” Then things really got interesting. Inspector took one of the board members and was trying to make a deal in the corner. I complained saying. This is a recorded hearing they can’t be having a discussion off record over there! Turns out the rule change for the tank was not on the books yet but was sent to inspectors in an “inter office memo” So I said How am I supposed to get a copy of a Labor and Industry memo when applying for a permit?

It ended up they said do you want a ruling in the mail and I said no I want it right now. So the gavel hit and they approved it. Vote was 100% positive. 1/2 of the board went down the hall with the inspectors and attorneys. Other 1/2 stayed to talk to my wife and I .

Sadly in the last min as part of the deal we had to put barrier pipes around the tank 8 feet high and 4 feet in the ground filled with concrete and tied together on top. But at least I could use the tank. I call it my elephant mating cage. No semi will get in there now. Makes it a real pain to get the tanker close enough to fill the tank. Plus no equipment can fit between the pipes so anything inside has to be done by hand.

The inspector made me change to a 100ft hose instead of 75’ hose. Of course ground and fuel hose then did not fit the reels. He would also not allow me to have any credit card signs. “we don’t want just anyone showing up here to fuel their airplane. This tank is only for people you have schooled on use of key cards you issue” You can’t fuel an airplane closer than 100’ to the tank.

Turns out in the state of PA you can’t have an unattended fuel station. SO every self serve tank setup at an airport in PA is illegal if nobody is there 24 hrs a day. And yes 100’ I believe was correct at that time. I asked the Bureau of Aviation to get a clarification of this from PA Labor and Industry. Kept asking and did not get an answer.

They finally said they would not ask the question because “We might get an answer we don’t want to hear”. There are many more details I’ve forgotten to that saga but it’s just how it works out with these agencies.


After reading that - all i can say is :bang: and :deadhorse:

You have the patience only known to the great almighty. I fear if I was in that meeting I would have spent some time cooling my heels at the county country club. As long as they have three hots and a cot it would have been worth it to knock the inspectors off their feet.

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Anthony Dennis


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 Post subject: Re: $
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2022, 20:57 
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Joined: 01/07/08
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Location: 5B2 Saratoga Springs, NY
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Username Protected wrote:
.......
Every fight is about the same. Get caught off guard by something. Research and find all the info possible to see where they might not know their own rules. Find it is usually some cowboy in an office who is making things up and they don’t know what they are doing.

Then go to meetings armed with all the info I can find. I usually represent myself and it helps throw them off guard. Sometimes that disarms a local board compared to sending an attorney in to do the talking. .....

This is incredibly effective, time consuming & frustrating, but has proven to be the Achilles' heel of many bureaucratic obstacles.

Bravo!


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2022, 18:18 
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Charlie, check with Penn DOT and their local aviation board. PA is a block grant state and even privately owned public use airports can apply for property tax rebates. They won't refund the local property tax on "income producing property" like your hangars or fueling operation. But you can get a refund for all the land and runways and taxiways and overrun / safety areas that are solely for aircraft movement.

You also want to get to know your local board reps on the aviation side. They're probably better equipped to deal with hostile local officials. I know up in Vermont new people move in and decide the airport that's been charted for years has to go. That's where friends at the state level come in handy. Even if all they're trying to do is tax you out of existence, your local aviation people can help you out because they know what market rates are for hangar rentals and can talk the assessor down if they're using industrial or commercial multipliers to value the building.

Good luck!

See https://www.penndot.pa.gov/Doing-Busine ... fault.aspx


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2022, 14:12 
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Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
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There are some issues with the tax rebate program.

I need to lay out the dimensions of the runway and a straight taxiway to the ramp area. This area is calculated to find a value by the assessors office. I send it to the Bureau of Aviation. To be eligible you need to pay the taxes first and show proof of payment.

But once I receive the grant I need to remain in the program forever. If I have a bad year where I can't pay the taxes on time then I'm kicked out of the program and fined three times the amount of the grant.

I told them I cannot take that risk. Just when I'm having a bad year then I will be fined on top of everything.

Since my airport was not accepted into the NPIAS program (National Plan of Integrated Airport Systems) it is not eligible for any of the federal programs.

We applied a while back but at the meeting the person at the head of the long table said "We are concerned about you families commitment to aviation". I could have climbed over the table and strangled him.

Basically because it's privately owned they said we were not eligible. But another airport near here privately owned was included. Then they said even though the rules say at least 10 based airplanes you need to have 35. Ok I counted and I had 40 at the time. Oh they said we would really like you to have 45. So I called back at 50 and same story. 63 based airplanes now. But I understand because it's never going to be a 5000' reliever jet port type airport.

It really was a blessing because after talking to engineering firms doing the studies they basically said taking federal money is like a deal with the devil. I would get so frustrated by the paperwork and extra layer of auditing and approvals that it would not be worth it.

Tax Appeals were filed last week. It's a real risk because the county will do their own appraisals and if it comes back calculated higher then the taxes will go up because of the appeal. Also I'm putting off paying the fine. They said I could pay it now and if I win the case it will be reimbursed. But paying it now shows clear ability to pay. If I wait and lose then another thousand in interest.

We tried three commercial appraisers. None would take the job due to no comparable airport sales to use for current value. Since there was a grant to buy the runway extension property $412,500 or 75% of the fair market value at the time would need to be paid back to the state.
But sale of any section would close the airport and trigger grant repayment. How this figures into fair market value calculation for yearly tax I'm not sure.

I sent in 3 years tax returns and will be using an income based fair market value approach.
County is at 3.8 M. My accountant came up with $660,000 for calculated income based value. We are far apart.

I did send the questions to the PA Bureau of Aviation. They said they cannot really be any help with this matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2022, 14:32 
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Location: Savannah, GA (KSAV)
Aircraft: 1959 Bonanza K35
These kinds of issues are happening all over the country and I think it would be really helpful to have a dedicated spot to share info on BT.

I have a "Back Talk" request to have an airport/hangar dev chat added to beechtalk here, go drop a comment if you'd like to see the same:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=214283

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Ted Meyer
ATP/CFI/II/MEI/ABS BPPP Instructor


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 Post subject: Re: Hangar and airport taxes
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2022, 15:06 
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Posts: 1659
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Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
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Username Protected wrote:
These kinds of issues are happening all over the country and I think it would be really helpful to have a dedicated spot to share info on BT.

I have a "Back Talk" request to have an airport/hangar dev chat added to beechtalk here, go drop a comment if you'd like to see the same:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=214283


Sure Ted. Will do, Hopefully it will help someone. These things pop up suddenly.


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