25 Apr 2024, 13:09 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 11:24 |
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Joined: 01/18/17 Posts: 337 Post Likes: +256 Company: Skyagunsta, inc. Location: Greenville, SC (GYH)
Aircraft: AG-5B
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Speaking as someone who makes part of his living from campaigns and government relations, it’s unlikely that this about you personally.
So the big question is Why did they replace ALL commissioners with council insiders and fire the manager at one time? Politicians rarely do something that ham-fisted without a big perceived upside. Whatever that upside is is the REAL threat in this scenario.
While legal advice is warranted in the short term, the long term solution is a coalition of voters who support the airport.
You need to… Talk to AOPA, former commissioners, former manager, political opponents of the current council, other airport users, businesses that benefit from the airport, etc.
Read all council minutes for the last 18 months and never let another council or airport commission meeting happen without you in the audience (in most states, FOIA requires them to notify you of meetings if you request).
Start FOIAing the official email accounts of councilors and airport manager.
The truth is out there
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 11:33 |
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Joined: 01/09/11 Posts: 116 Post Likes: +108 Location: KBKT
Aircraft: Mooney M20M Bravo
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Username Protected wrote: Speaking as someone who makes part of his living from campaigns and government relations, it’s unlikely that this about you personally.
So the big question is Why did they replace ALL commissioners with council insiders and fire the manager at one time? Politicians rarely do something that ham-fisted without a big perceived upside. Whatever that upside is is the REAL threat in this scenario.
While legal advice is warranted in the short term, the long term solution is a coalition of voters who support the airport.
You need to… Talk to AOPA, former commissioners, former manager, political opponents of the current council, other airport users, businesses that benefit from the airport, etc.
Read all council minutes for the last 18 months and never let another council or airport commission meeting happen without you in the audience (in most states, FOIA requires them to notify you of meetings if you request).
Start FOIAing the official email accounts of councilors and airport manager.
The truth is out there Best advice yet. Zoom out.
_________________ joe
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 16:14 |
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Joined: 12/19/09 Posts: 332 Post Likes: +272 Company: Premier Bone and Joint Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
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Thanks a lot for all the advice and assistance offered with moving my aircraft. The threat to my lease was in writing. They even said that if I challenge their 30 day suspension they might rescind my lease (it’s a 70 x 60 heated hangar, so a pretty big investment). We have tried to gain access to meeting minutes but they are not available. Might be available with FOIA request. Not sure. Our chief pilot and CEO have attended meetings (they happen when I’m out of town with the plane caring for patients) and the Board just sits there and says nothing when people complain. Ultimately, when about 20 pilots got together and complained about the management, the city council accused us of being male chauvinists arguing that we were attacking the manager because she was a woman. I did speak with the FAA and at least she seems to have confirmed that for an airport that has airlines (139) the NOTAMS are generally considered to be the rule, not a local FBO radio call. This has happened to me before when I was leaving VFR. No NOTAM for closure. I was about to take the runway and then came the radio call “runways are closed”. I sat there burning 40gph at idle for 15min until they did whatever it was that they did that allowed “opening” and then I left. This most recent time it was similar except that ATC was involved and had cleared me to depart, confirming twice that the runway was open, so I did depart. The FAA safety inspector I met with today referred me to another FAA employee to air my grievance as she indicated she only gets involved with airline issues at the airport, not general aviation. Left message with him. I’m hoping that some of you are correct that the written threat to lease termination referencing a violation of unwritten “airport regulation and policy” while acknowledging no FAR violation occurred (also in writing) will potentially constitute discrimination on access rights. Feels like swimming upstream. But AOPA and attorneys are working behind the scenes too, so hopefully things will normalize
_________________ Thomas
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 17:35 |
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Joined: 09/09/14 Posts: 785 Post Likes: +1754 Location: Grove Airport, Camas WA
Aircraft: Cub, Stearman
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You've got lots of good advice on this thread. My philosophy is:
"Why make the money unless you're willing to spend it?"
I would just relentlessly go after these punks. If you make it painful for them financially, reputationally, politically or even just in time and effort, you'll teach them a lesson.
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 19:40 |
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Joined: 11/06/20 Posts: 1313 Post Likes: +1298 Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: You've got lots of good advice on this thread. My philosophy is:
"Why make the money unless you're willing to spend it?"
I would just relentlessly go after these punks. If you make it painful for them financially, reputationally, politically or even just in time and effort, you'll teach them a lesson. Because it takes a toll beyond financial. We are going through this now as our neighbor is trying to put up a cell phone tower. There is an Industrial Zone 1,500' away that is technically viable (it was inside the Engineer's circle) but the business owners there want more money than our neighbor. We won at the County last year then they reapplied by lowering the tower height from 145' to 140' and magically the votes flipped from 3-1 against to 3-1 for (my wife and the other neighbors believe those 2 board members were influenced by AT&T). We are appealing and while we could mount a serious campaign against this, try to figure out if they were really influenced, etc. it's simply easier (and likely cheaper) to move. The stress of constantly not knowing the outcome plus spending your own time strategizing and executing your plans is exhausting. Plus there is the specter of having harassment pointed back at you. This neighbor already had me served with a restraining order just to make my life hard. I had to take a day off of work and hang out at the courthouse. The judge threw it out but it was still a PITA. So we are engaging in a delaying action until we can find a new place. Yes, that means that the bad people will win. But my time, marriage, and mental health are more valuable.
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 22:31 |
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Joined: 12/01/13 Posts: 825 Post Likes: +821 Location: Airdrie, AB
Aircraft: Cessna A185F
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I’ve been courted to open a depot for my business in WY. One of the carrots is that with the low population density the Governor and other elected persons are said to be very accessible when bureaucrats get out of line. It would seem that letting them know there’s a problem would help.
You’re treating patients across the state that need you. This is an easy place for a governor to apply some pressure and earn political capital.
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 22:54 |
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Joined: 01/18/17 Posts: 337 Post Likes: +256 Company: Skyagunsta, inc. Location: Greenville, SC (GYH)
Aircraft: AG-5B
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Username Protected wrote: Thanks a lot for all the advice and assistance offered with moving my aircraft. The threat to my lease was in writing. They even said that if I challenge their 30 day suspension they might rescind my lease (it’s a 70 x 60 heated hangar, so a pretty big investment). We have tried to gain access to meeting minutes but they are not available. Might be available with FOIA request. Not sure. Our chief pilot and CEO have attended meetings (they happen when I’m out of town with the plane caring for patients) and the Board just sits there and says nothing when people complain. Ultimately, when about 20 pilots got together and complained about the management, the city council accused us of being male chauvinists arguing that we were attacking the manager because she was a woman. I did speak with the FAA and at least she seems to have confirmed that for an airport that has airlines (139) the NOTAMS are generally considered to be the rule, not a local FBO radio call. This has happened to me before when I was leaving VFR. No NOTAM for closure. I was about to take the runway and then came the radio call “runways are closed”. I sat there burning 40gph at idle for 15min until they did whatever it was that they did that allowed “opening” and then I left. This most recent time it was similar except that ATC was involved and had cleared me to depart, confirming twice that the runway was open, so I did depart. The FAA safety inspector I met with today referred me to another FAA employee to air my grievance as she indicated she only gets involved with airline issues at the airport, not general aviation. Left message with him. I’m hoping that some of you are correct that the written threat to lease termination referencing a violation of unwritten “airport regulation and policy” while acknowledging no FAR violation occurred (also in writing) will potentially constitute discrimination on access rights. Feels like swimming upstream. But AOPA and attorneys are working behind the scenes too, so hopefully things will normalize https://www.nfoic.org/wyoming-foia-laws/
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 08 Nov 2022, 22:57 |
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Joined: 01/18/17 Posts: 337 Post Likes: +256 Company: Skyagunsta, inc. Location: Greenville, SC (GYH)
Aircraft: AG-5B
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Username Protected wrote: I’ve been courted to open a depot for my business in WY. One of the carrots is that with the low population density the Governor and other elected persons are said to be very accessible when bureaucrats get out of line. It would seem that letting them know there’s a problem would help.
You’re treating patients across the state that need you. This is an easy place for a governor to apply some pressure and earn political capital. Exactly this ^^^
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 09 Nov 2022, 00:07 |
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Joined: 08/15/11 Posts: 2398 Post Likes: +1063 Location: Mandan, ND
Aircraft: V35
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Only other thoughts I would add are;
-Talk to the Wyoming Aeronautics Commission. If like ND, Aeronautics supplies funds to airports (in addition to Feds), so there may be leverage there. In ND, talking to our Aeronautics Commission about something like you are experiencing, would bring lots of pressure to the local airport.
-Talk to open meetings expert at the Wyoming Attorney Generals office. Confirm/enhance your knowledge of the State’s open meetings laws. The airport could be in violation of State law.
-Get a copy of the Minimum Standards. Many larger GA airports (like the one I am on the board for) have minimum standards. It seems to be almost mandatory the Commercial Airports (which LAR is) have to have Minimum Standards.
-I am 99% sure you cannot close a NPIAS airport by any means other than a NOTAM.
-Find out who is the Manager of the ADO (FAA Airports District Office) who oversees Laramie. An airport does not want to “piss off” the ADO or Aeronautics, otherwise you can have “funding” problems. The City of Laramie may own the airport, but likely are only putting 5% in to major projects. Without the Feds and Aeronautics, Laramie would not be able to keep the airport operating once projects are needed.
-Good old fashioned politics. Start working all the influential players in and around Laramie. Get with the local Chamber or EDC and see if you can make some alliances. There are probably several groups that can expert pressure on the City/Airport Board.
Nothing will be a short term fix, but will be better long term.
Bottom line, when you start taking Federal (and State) grants, there are strings attached. Likely the “Airport Manager” and most likely the City Council, have no idea. Once you take the grants, you can’t just do whatever the hell you want.
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 09 Nov 2022, 00:40 |
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Joined: 12/19/09 Posts: 332 Post Likes: +272 Company: Premier Bone and Joint Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
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Username Protected wrote: Only other thoughts I would add are;
-Talk to the Wyoming Aeronautics Commission. If like ND, Aeronautics supplies funds to airports (in addition to Feds), so there may be leverage there. In ND, talking to our Aeronautics Commission about something like you are experiencing, would bring lots of pressure to the local airport. --I know the director of the WAC and I spoke with him a long time ago about our difficulties. He said that he has heard a lot of complaints about the airport and the manager but that they have no influence over what the airport does. He was not able to help. -Talk to open meetings expert at the Wyoming Attorney Generals office. Confirm/enhance your knowledge of the State’s open meetings laws. The airport could be in violation of State law. --We are getting the meeting minutes
-Get a copy of the Minimum Standards. Many larger GA airports (like the one I am on the board for) have minimum standards. It seems to be almost mandatory the Commercial Airports (which LAR is) have to have Minimum Standards. --They don't have any, just like it has been confirmed that they don't have any Rules and Regulations (which they admitted today) despite my reported failure to abide by such rules being the reason for my suspension.
-I am 99% sure you cannot close a NPIAS airport by any means other than a NOTAM. --I believe that is correct. The FAA safety inspector educated me about that when I spoke with her today. Non-towered airports without airline service probably do have that capability but not at a 139 facility.
-Find out who is the Manager of the ADO (FAA Airports District Office) who oversees Laramie. An airport does not want to “piss off” the ADO or Aeronautics, otherwise you can have “funding” problems. The City of Laramie may own the airport, but likely are only putting 5% in to major projects. Without the Feds and Aeronautics, Laramie would not be able to keep the airport operating once projects are needed. --That is who the FAA safety inspector referred me to. I called and left a very long-winded message. Hopefully I'll hear back. Now that we have determined that the rules I was accused of breaking aren't even written down and approved, claiming a charge of discrimination (since this is obviously personal and not about rules) might get a bit easier which brings grant assurances into play.
-Good old fashioned politics. Start working all the influential players in and around Laramie. Get with the local Chamber or EDC and see if you can make some alliances. There are probably several groups that can expert pressure on the City/Airport Board. --Yes, that would definitely be a way to attack this. Unfortunately I work about 60 hours a week just taking care of patients and running my business. Local businesses are never open when I have time to meet with them. But still, a good thought. I checked today to see how people could get elected to the Airport Board, and apparently they have to be appointed by the city...convenient.
Nothing will be a short term fix, but will be better long term.
Bottom line, when you start taking Federal (and State) grants, there are strings attached. Likely the “Airport Manager” and most likely the City Council, have no idea. Once you take the grants, you can’t just do whatever the hell you want. --That is the approach which will probably resolve this via the discrimination issue brought up above. Note: I don't know how to respond to individual elements of a quote on this forum so most of my comments are within the quote preceded by --
_________________ Thomas
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 09 Nov 2022, 05:59 |
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Joined: 01/05/11 Posts: 314 Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
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What is the TRUE cost benefit of pursuing this issue. You really have to know what fights you want to pick. Sometimes it’s just best to leave stupid alone.
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 09 Nov 2022, 09:19 |
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Joined: 08/01/11 Posts: 6780 Post Likes: +4534 Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
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Only an absolute fool woul threaten you in writing. These clowns are probably jealous of your position and think they can stomp on you. Find out who the problem child is and get them off the board. You or your closest ally should be on the board.
_________________ Fly High,
Ryan Holt CFI
"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"
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Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport Posted: 09 Nov 2022, 09:20 |
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Joined: 08/01/11 Posts: 6780 Post Likes: +4534 Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
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Next step, we f they are impeding your work is to start a tally and let them know, through your lawyer that they will be sued for a running daily rate for income lost.
_________________ Fly High,
Ryan Holt CFI
"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"
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