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28 Mar 2024, 07:01 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 17:26 
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Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 329
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Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Understand about the friction meter zero response on 139 airports. But the fact is that no other airports around here find zeros when they check (all are 139) and braking was fair when I tested it. Nil (0) is the equivalent of wet glare ice. I spun my plane right around on the runway twice and brakes worked pretty good. It wasn’t nil. I have recommended that they have their device calibrated or seek training because they close their runways approximately 10 or more times as frequently as any other airport in the area. It happened multiple times last year and resulted in planes stuck out and not being able to return.

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Thomas


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 17:55 
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Joined: 11/03/08
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Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
Aircraft: A33
if it's not too presumptuous, I might suggest you keep your argument simple. It doesn't matter why or how they close a runway. It was not closed when you departed.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 18:06 
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Joined: 01/24/10
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
Airports can be punitive in their rules. If they feel you are a hazard for not obeying their rules they can punish you.
Check your hangar and see if they are obligated to provide runway access from your hangar. If they are obligated you can withhold your hangar lease payments until they provide access.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 19:22 
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Joined: 05/05/09
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Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
You are never going to win this legally. Start sending these people small gifts, buy them lunch, give them $100 bills at Christmas, offer to take them flying, tell them you’ll help them out if their kid ever breaks a bone, etc.

Make these people feel big and powerful (that’s what they really want) and you will win and be left alone to do what you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 19:39 
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Joined: 12/22/07
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Company: Cogswell Cogs, LLC
Location: KPTK (SE Michigan)
Aircraft: C205
Documentation … in-writing or recording.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 20:26 
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Joined: 11/25/11
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
Neither my law degree, nor my experience qualifies me to give much advice here. The best was to get a lawyer knowledgeable in this area. The second is to find a true violation that gives you a cause of action and sue the crap out of the city and individuals. At this point, they are not inconvenienced, having to work to protect their turf, or suffering negative consequences for flippant actions of exercising authority.

Figure out how to change that and your problems will disappear. GIVE THEM NO UP SIDE.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 20:53 
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Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 329
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Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Anyone know if confirmed Part 13 and Part 16 violations simply trigger FAA action against the airport and possible loss of funds, or can they be used to file a grievance and do what you say (get their attention). The reason I ask is because in the last couple years, the various things they’ve done failed to meet at least 5 required assurances. But I’ve also been told by an aviation professional that those complaints usually go nowhere with the FAA.
I did have a potential “angle” about their attorney initially “charging me” with taking off from a closed runway when it was clearly known to be open since they filed a NOTAM to close it shortly after I left. But that would potentially only be a Bar Assoc, issue, not an airport issue. The fact that they continue to suggest that I put lives in danger is most galling since all the trucks self-reported that they were clear before I started my takeoff roll which is exactly how most non-towered fields work around here with snow removal: as an aircraft approaches to land or depart the trucks temporarily stand clear, and then return to work afterward.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 21:00 
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Joined: 08/09/11
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Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Thomas,

If you’re having this problem, so is everyone else I’m guessing. Which sounds primarily like a political problem, at least in the long term. I am dealing with same. While everyone is sleeping or trying to run a business in the midst of Covid or whatever excuse we have, an airport hostile council is somehow elected. And it goes downhill from there … so don’t let the train get too far down those tracks.

I will say when the pillars of the community wake up and support the airport, coupled with savvy attorneys and about a million bucks of effort, good things should occur.

We’re engaging with local attorneys, airport specialist attorneys, NBAA, AOPA, EAA, every business owner on the airport, every tenant and airport user, past council members, and other people of influence.

Call me anytime. I can tell you what we are dealing with and a few names who might be worth contacting.

That’s my useless .02 :peace:


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 21:11 
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Joined: 02/21/11
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Location: Northside of Atlanta
Aircraft: RV-6 & RV-10
I would get AOPA involved. Nothing someone at the FBO says over unicom is regulatory. NOTAMS are. You checked the appropriate places, independently verified the runway conditions, then departed legally and safely.

If they are hassling you over this, they need a serious rethink about how airports operate.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 21:52 
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Joined: 08/01/11
Posts: 6689
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Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
You need to get an attorney and pursue and legal means. Make it clear you will not be bullied. They are already blackmailing you by threatening the lease when you did nothing wrong. Make sure you get that threat in writing. You then need to get pilots on your side and start pressuring whoever is causing you grief. Verbally only of course.

After you have their attention, let them know you just want to be left alone. They really do not have the right to restrict you from you airplane. Discriminatory practices. I would go fly and make them play their hand. That is when the fun will really begin. Always keep your cool and let them do something stupid. They have already done something stupid. They are capable of more stupid. How the hell does this go on in Laramie and someone is not considering a duel?

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Ryan Holt CFI

"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 22:13 
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Joined: 04/09/16
Posts: 541
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Location: Utah
Aircraft: MU-2B
Very sorry you’re dealing with this. If you need someone to come get your mu2 out let me know I’m just over in alpine and current. What a joke to be honest, I hope your able to make an example of these people.

Could also try reporting hotline.faa.gov they are required to investigate, may lead to nothing but might also show them someone else is now looking at them.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2022, 22:32 
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Joined: 08/01/11
Posts: 6689
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Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
Username Protected wrote:
Anyone know if confirmed Part 13 and Part 16 violations simply trigger FAA action against the airport and possible loss of funds, or can they be used to file a grievance and do what you say (get their attention). The reason I ask is because in the last couple years, the various things they’ve done failed to meet at least 5 required assurances. But I’ve also been told by an aviation professional that those complaints usually go nowhere with the FAA.
I did have a potential “angle” about their attorney initially “charging me” with taking off from a closed runway when it was clearly known to be open since they filed a NOTAM to close it shortly after I left. But that would potentially only be a Bar Assoc, issue, not an airport issue. The fact that they continue to suggest that I put lives in danger is most galling since all the trucks self-reported that they were clear before I started my takeoff roll which is exactly how most non-towered fields work around here with snow removal: as an aircraft approaches to land or depart the trucks temporarily stand clear, and then return to work afterward.


Whatever you do, do not threaten them with government action. You could be accused of blackmail. Just do the action. It will speak volumes.

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Fly High,

Ryan Holt CFI

"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 08 Nov 2022, 09:06 
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Joined: 11/25/11
Posts: 9168
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
Username Protected wrote:
You are never going to win this legally. Start sending these people small gifts, buy them lunch, give them $100 bills at Christmas, offer to take them flying, tell them you’ll help them out if their kid ever breaks a bone, etc.

Make these people feel big and powerful (that’s what they really want) and you will win and be left alone to do what you want.


I absolutely agree with Michael when it works. Sometimes it simply doesn't. The next step is what I posted, don't let their harassment be easy. Make them work for it until the cost/benefit ratio is simply not there for them.

The "Little people with power syndrome" is everywhere. I've just been through three bouts of it recently, two with the zoning commission and one with the community water district that supplies water to my ranch. In those cases, I was able to isolate those working against me by assembling those for me. It was like a damn chess game, but, in both situations, I got what I needed. The zoning changes added a million dollars of value to two of my properties: that's a million dollars each. I've already sold a parcel on one under the new zoning designation.

Unfortunately, it's simply a cost of doing business.

Jg

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Waste no time with fools. They have nothing to lose.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 08 Nov 2022, 10:15 
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Joined: 11/11/17
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JGG....I spent too many years in govt on the mil side, and one of my constants was that I never heard a single civil servant/govt official say "what's best for the taxpayer?"


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulties with local airport
PostPosted: 08 Nov 2022, 10:17 
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Joined: 09/07/12
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Location: KIWS Houston, VA, N03 NY
Aircraft: Baron C55
Username Protected wrote:
You are never going to win this legally. Start sending these people small gifts, buy them lunch, give them $100 bills at Christmas, offer to take them flying, tell them you’ll help them out if their kid ever breaks a bone, etc.

Make these people feel big and powerful (that’s what they really want) and you will win and be left alone to do what you want.


Yep, that would probably work. But this country will be a better place if everyone pushed back against bureaucratic bullying like the OP.

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