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28 Mar 2024, 13:55 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2022, 14:35 
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My airplane is 85% the way to outer space, and thus it is really almost a spaceship, and I respect it like one.

Mike C.


Don't tell Signature that, I'd hate to see the ramp fees they have queued up for those


"Space junk mitigation fund"
"Stratospheric security fee"
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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2022, 16:54 
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That's all valid, but the germane question is did he get the job? Did it really matter that he didn't have turbine experience? Plus there are 135 operators out there who would be willing to give your IP a full time position getting hundreds of hours a year with a path to the left seat and onto the airlines. Not flying a few times a week, all SIC, with an owner-operator.

Yes, he got the job. Will 135 operators hire a 100-hour MEL-I as a right-seater? The typical path is to CFI your way to enough hours for the airlines. Personally I would rather be building hours in a jet than sweating it out in an Archer or Seminole. Of course Anthony probably doesn't fly enough for full time so his SICs would probably do both. Anyway, just throwing it out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2022, 19:31 
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Insurance requirements aside,


"Well... other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

Didn't the 3 bounce co-pilot get axed and now you need an annual 61.55 ride?


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2022, 20:27 
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Yes, he got the job. Will 135 operators hire a 100-hour MEL-I as a right-seater? The typical path is to CFI your way to enough hours for the airlines. Personally I would rather be building hours in a jet than sweating it out in an Archer or Seminole. Of course Anthony probably doesn't fly enough for full time so his SICs would probably do both. Anyway, just throwing it out there.


Sorry to continue the thread drift, but dog with a bone...

Cape Air will hire ya with 500 hours, and I've heard of some other operations hiring with less. If you sign up for a zero-to-hero program with ATP or a similar outfit, you'll get that in 1.5 years easy. I'd say typical is CFI-regional/135-legacy/major.

Playing devil's advocate, if you found a candidate that passed insurance requirements, you have to get them typed. Is a 100 hour MEL-I going to pass a crewed jet type rating? Seems unlikely (type rides for bigger metal are very different then say a C510 type ride). Are you going to have them sign a training bond? Those are generally looked down upon in the industry (for whatever reason), so that reduces your candidate pool. An experienced crewed jet pilot knows their worth and will make you pay accordingly. On top of that, some operations (121 and 135) prohibit moonlighting. Are you willing to pay top dollar to bring on a full-time SIC? Again, seems unlikely.

While I'm sure there are eager young folks who would hop on the opportunity to fly right seat in a lear and avoid hours in unairconditioned pistons, that's not enough to actually fill the seat.

Point is, there are so many capable planes out there that can be flown single pilot that I don't see the value in getting a crewed airplane. Spouse as SIC? 200-300k to spare for a full time pilot? Have at it. Trying to fill an SIC seat flight to flight sounds like a PITA.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2022, 06:44 
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Playing devil's advocate, if you found a candidate that passed insurance requirements, you have to get them typed.


SIC's don't need a type rating. Yes, the FAA will give an SIC type rating, but this is for ICAO purposes and not REQUIRED domestically

https://nbaa.org/flight-department-admi ... onnel/sic/

Everything else, I agree. And I believe the insurance requirements are likely to kill any efforts to get a cheap copilot anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2022, 10:53 
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Not saying I want to deal with hassle or that any of comments are untrue, BUT this conversation reminds of one’s I have at work all the time on hiring people.

Is it hard right now, yes. Is it impossible, no. The market for planes is efficient and there are WAY more two pilot corporate aircraft than single pilot. So clearly the market is figuring it out. If it were easy to be an owner operator of complex old turbines more people would be doing it. I enjoy the complexity / its a fun hobby!!

In my case, i have much more flexibility than someone looking to find a pilot to fly a pc12 solo, for example. It’s less difficult to qualify SIC. I have a friend w a new pc24. They are making him fly it two pilot for insurance. The SIC requirements seemed pretty darn light. That said he is not happy he bought an expensive plane to fly single pilot and cannot. He now wishes he had something with bigger cabin and more speed. The second guy he is using costs a lot less than the note he is carrying on a pc24 vs paying cash for an old Lear or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2022, 12:25 
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The SIC requirements seemed pretty darn light.


That's the critical piece and is gonna be idiosyncratic to each situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2022, 13:09 
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I spoke to the Pilates rep at OshKosh and he said most of the pc24s are being flown with 2-crew. The insurance delta on 2-crew vs SP makes the additional pilot a cost savings (even in an inflated cost market). Go figure......


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2022, 07:14 
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I spoke to the Pilates rep at OshKosh and he said most of the pc24s are being flown with 2-crew. The insurance delta on 2-crew vs SP makes the additional pilot a cost savings (even in an inflated cost market). Go figure......

Not hard to figure. A PC-24 is a $10m plane.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2022, 10:24 
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I think the problem is as a practical matter, finding these folks and keeping them long enough to be useful is just an ongoing pain in the rear for the individual owner-operator. Scheduling when you want, coordinating travel, and so forth takes some work, and someone who’s only there short term never quite syncs up and becomes valuable enough to make it worth it.

"Chartering the human"

We don't own our airplanes to have the hassles of charter.

The SIC is fabulous in the air, and a nightmare at all other times.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2022, 10:35 
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The SIC is fabulous in the air, and a nightmare at all other times.

Mike C.


Unless you sleep together.
Then it is just the opposite (green font?)

Tj

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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 09:43 
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I spoke to the Pilates rep at OshKosh and he said most of the pc24s are being flown with 2-crew. The insurance delta on 2-crew vs SP makes the additional pilot a cost savings (even in an inflated cost market). Go figure......


I think is a little misleading - on a pro-flown PC24 two-crew with good qualified pilots you are looking at $40k plus or minus annual insurance - maybe a little more or less than double that for single-pilot ops with an exceptionally qual'd SP experienced jet pilot.

I don't know of too many pilots right now operating a 12m airframe that will work for $40k+ a year. There is no "savings" in flying two-crew from a net standpoint (care and feeding of a second pilot). The reason two-crew is usually flown is 1.) safety 2.) higher liability limits available in a two-crew operation - sure the insurance is less for two-crew ops but not nearly enough less to pay that second pilot in the right seat annually. :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 10:27 
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No, but does PC24 sell at a premium due to it’s SP certification? What is the nearest 2 crew jet competitor and what does it sell for?


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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 14:17 
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No, but does PC24 sell at a premium due to it’s SP certification? What is the nearest 2 crew jet competitor and what does it sell for?


In that space you have the Phenom 300E, CJ3+, CJ4 and PC24....all are between 9m+ and 12m+ value and all SP TC'd.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 19:46 
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I spoke to the Pilates rep at OshKosh and he said most of the pc24s are being flown with 2-crew. The insurance delta on 2-crew vs SP makes the additional pilot a cost savings (even in an inflated cost market). Go figure......


I think is a little misleading - on a pro-flown PC24 two-crew with good qualified pilots you are looking at $40k plus or minus annual insurance - maybe a little more or less than double that for single-pilot ops with an exceptionally qual'd SP experienced jet pilot.

I don't know of too many pilots right now operating a 12m airframe that will work for $40k+ a year. There is no "savings" in flying two-crew from a net standpoint (care and feeding of a second pilot). The reason two-crew is usually flown is 1.) safety 2.) higher liability limits available in a two-crew operation - sure the insurance is less for two-crew ops but not nearly enough less to pay that second pilot in the right seat annually. :cheers:



40k for a 12mm jet seems really cheap for insurance regardless of number of pilots.

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