28 Mar 2024, 13:55 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 09 Sep 2022, 14:35 |
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Joined: 08/05/16 Posts: 3097 Post Likes: +2222 Company: Tack Mobile Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
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Username Protected wrote: My airplane is 85% the way to outer space, and thus it is really almost a spaceship, and I respect it like one.
Mike C. Don't tell Signature that, I'd hate to see the ramp fees they have queued up for those
"Space junk mitigation fund" "Stratospheric security fee" "Liquid propulsion handling fee" "Space launch convenience fee"
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 09 Sep 2022, 16:54 |
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Joined: 11/06/20 Posts: 1276 Post Likes: +1270 Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: That's all valid, but the germane question is did he get the job? Did it really matter that he didn't have turbine experience? Plus there are 135 operators out there who would be willing to give your IP a full time position getting hundreds of hours a year with a path to the left seat and onto the airlines. Not flying a few times a week, all SIC, with an owner-operator. Yes, he got the job. Will 135 operators hire a 100-hour MEL-I as a right-seater? The typical path is to CFI your way to enough hours for the airlines. Personally I would rather be building hours in a jet than sweating it out in an Archer or Seminole. Of course Anthony probably doesn't fly enough for full time so his SICs would probably do both. Anyway, just throwing it out there.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 09 Sep 2022, 19:31 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 12798 Post Likes: +5224 Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
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Username Protected wrote: Insurance requirements aside, "Well... other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" Didn't the 3 bounce co-pilot get axed and now you need an annual 61.55 ride?
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 09 Sep 2022, 20:27 |
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Joined: 07/16/12 Posts: 77 Post Likes: +65 Location: KHEF & KCPS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: Yes, he got the job. Will 135 operators hire a 100-hour MEL-I as a right-seater? The typical path is to CFI your way to enough hours for the airlines. Personally I would rather be building hours in a jet than sweating it out in an Archer or Seminole. Of course Anthony probably doesn't fly enough for full time so his SICs would probably do both. Anyway, just throwing it out there. Sorry to continue the thread drift, but dog with a bone... Cape Air will hire ya with 500 hours, and I've heard of some other operations hiring with less. If you sign up for a zero-to-hero program with ATP or a similar outfit, you'll get that in 1.5 years easy. I'd say typical is CFI-regional/135-legacy/major. Playing devil's advocate, if you found a candidate that passed insurance requirements, you have to get them typed. Is a 100 hour MEL-I going to pass a crewed jet type rating? Seems unlikely (type rides for bigger metal are very different then say a C510 type ride). Are you going to have them sign a training bond? Those are generally looked down upon in the industry (for whatever reason), so that reduces your candidate pool. An experienced crewed jet pilot knows their worth and will make you pay accordingly. On top of that, some operations (121 and 135) prohibit moonlighting. Are you willing to pay top dollar to bring on a full-time SIC? Again, seems unlikely. While I'm sure there are eager young folks who would hop on the opportunity to fly right seat in a lear and avoid hours in unairconditioned pistons, that's not enough to actually fill the seat. Point is, there are so many capable planes out there that can be flown single pilot that I don't see the value in getting a crewed airplane. Spouse as SIC? 200-300k to spare for a full time pilot? Have at it. Trying to fill an SIC seat flight to flight sounds like a PITA.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 10 Sep 2022, 06:44 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 12798 Post Likes: +5224 Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
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Username Protected wrote: Playing devil's advocate, if you found a candidate that passed insurance requirements, you have to get them typed. SIC's don't need a type rating. Yes, the FAA will give an SIC type rating, but this is for ICAO purposes and not REQUIRED domestically https://nbaa.org/flight-department-admi ... onnel/sic/Everything else, I agree. And I believe the insurance requirements are likely to kill any efforts to get a cheap copilot anyway.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 10 Sep 2022, 12:25 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 12798 Post Likes: +5224 Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
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Username Protected wrote: The SIC requirements seemed pretty darn light. That's the critical piece and is gonna be idiosyncratic to each situation.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 11 Sep 2022, 07:14 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2513 Post Likes: +1240
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Username Protected wrote: I spoke to the Pilates rep at OshKosh and he said most of the pc24s are being flown with 2-crew. The insurance delta on 2-crew vs SP makes the additional pilot a cost savings (even in an inflated cost market). Go figure...... Not hard to figure. A PC-24 is a $10m plane.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 11 Sep 2022, 10:24 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23612 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I think the problem is as a practical matter, finding these folks and keeping them long enough to be useful is just an ongoing pain in the rear for the individual owner-operator. Scheduling when you want, coordinating travel, and so forth takes some work, and someone who’s only there short term never quite syncs up and becomes valuable enough to make it worth it. "Chartering the human" We don't own our airplanes to have the hassles of charter. The SIC is fabulous in the air, and a nightmare at all other times. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 11 Sep 2022, 10:35 |
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Joined: 03/23/08 Posts: 6908 Post Likes: +3552 Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx. Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
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Username Protected wrote: The SIC is fabulous in the air, and a nightmare at all other times.
Mike C. Unless you sleep together. Then it is just the opposite (green font?) Tj
_________________ Tom Johnson-Az/Wy AssuredPartners Aerospace Insurance Tj.Johnson@AssuredPartners.com C: 602-628-2701
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 12 Sep 2022, 09:43 |
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Joined: 03/09/11 Posts: 1724 Post Likes: +784 Company: Wings Insurance Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
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Username Protected wrote: I spoke to the Pilates rep at OshKosh and he said most of the pc24s are being flown with 2-crew. The insurance delta on 2-crew vs SP makes the additional pilot a cost savings (even in an inflated cost market). Go figure...... I think is a little misleading - on a pro-flown PC24 two-crew with good qualified pilots you are looking at $40k plus or minus annual insurance - maybe a little more or less than double that for single-pilot ops with an exceptionally qual'd SP experienced jet pilot. I don't know of too many pilots right now operating a 12m airframe that will work for $40k+ a year. There is no "savings" in flying two-crew from a net standpoint (care and feeding of a second pilot). The reason two-crew is usually flown is 1.) safety 2.) higher liability limits available in a two-crew operation - sure the insurance is less for two-crew ops but not nearly enough less to pay that second pilot in the right seat annually.
_________________ Tom Hauge Wings Insurance National Sales Director E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 12 Sep 2022, 10:27 |
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Joined: 08/23/10 Posts: 843 Post Likes: +660
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No, but does PC24 sell at a premium due to it’s SP certification? What is the nearest 2 crew jet competitor and what does it sell for?
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 12 Sep 2022, 14:17 |
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Joined: 03/09/11 Posts: 1724 Post Likes: +784 Company: Wings Insurance Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
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Username Protected wrote: No, but does PC24 sell at a premium due to it’s SP certification? What is the nearest 2 crew jet competitor and what does it sell for? In that space you have the Phenom 300E, CJ3+, CJ4 and PC24....all are between 9m+ and 12m+ value and all SP TC'd.
_________________ Tom Hauge Wings Insurance National Sales Director E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile Posted: 12 Sep 2022, 19:46 |
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Joined: 03/03/11 Posts: 1845 Post Likes: +1819
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: I spoke to the Pilates rep at OshKosh and he said most of the pc24s are being flown with 2-crew. The insurance delta on 2-crew vs SP makes the additional pilot a cost savings (even in an inflated cost market). Go figure...... I think is a little misleading - on a pro-flown PC24 two-crew with good qualified pilots you are looking at $40k plus or minus annual insurance - maybe a little more or less than double that for single-pilot ops with an exceptionally qual'd SP experienced jet pilot. I don't know of too many pilots right now operating a 12m airframe that will work for $40k+ a year. There is no "savings" in flying two-crew from a net standpoint (care and feeding of a second pilot). The reason two-crew is usually flown is 1.) safety 2.) higher liability limits available in a two-crew operation - sure the insurance is less for two-crew ops but not nearly enough less to pay that second pilot in the right seat annually.
40k for a 12mm jet seems really cheap for insurance regardless of number of pilots.
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