banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 13:42 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 76 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 19:55 
Online


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 03/09/11
Posts: 1724
Post Likes: +784
Company: Wings Insurance
Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
Username Protected wrote:

40k for a 12mm jet seems really cheap for insurance regardless of number of pilots.


Yes for pro-crew with well qual'd jet experienced pilots it will be in that range. It is not owner/flown insurance we are talking about which is a completely different ball game.

_________________
Tom Hauge
Wings Insurance
National Sales Director
E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 20:03 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12797
Post Likes: +5224
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
Username Protected wrote:
Yes for pro-crew with well qual'd jet experienced pilots it will be in that range. It is not owner/flown insurance we are talking about which is a completely different ball game.


What would owner flown, ( say 2000tt - 500 sr22, 1500 meridian) be on a pc24 class airplane for single pilot vs crew?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 20:07 
Online


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 03/09/11
Posts: 1724
Post Likes: +784
Company: Wings Insurance
Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
Username Protected wrote:
Yes for pro-crew with well qual'd jet experienced pilots it will be in that range. It is not owner/flown insurance we are talking about which is a completely different ball game.


What would owner flown, ( say 2000tt - 500 sr22, 1500 meridian) be on a pc24 class airplane for single pilot vs crew?


No jet time likely exclusionary SP in year one - two crew would push 80-100k likely. th
_________________
Tom Hauge
Wings Insurance
National Sales Director
E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 22:04 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
Post Likes: +1819
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
What about someone like me? Owner flown pc24 - 2500hrs, 1200 of that twin turbines. Another 600 pressurized pistons. MU2 time should be considered jet time squared ;)

At what point does the experience line between owner and pro pilot blur? I train at same places and fly more than some ‘pro’ pilots. How does insurance make that judgement?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 23:35 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 09/11/09
Posts: 318
Post Likes: +115
Aircraft: PC24,PC12,BE30,LR60
Regards to the PC24. I am insurance approved to fly it single pilot and have almost 500 hrs single pilot in it. I also have over 10,500 hrs, 6 types, probably near 7,000 hrs single pilot. Most insurance companies anymore will not approve single pilot ops in the 24 unless you have very extensive single pilot, multi engine turbine experience. Even then, your maximum liability minimums will be lower.

Insurance Example:

Single pilot 2021 /2022 renewal was $69k @ $25mil (this was split 50/50 between 2 insurers was the only way they would approve it)

2 Crew dropped the annual rate to $27,400. While it is a significant savings, it still does not get you a second pilot, if looking at it in a purely cost factor.

It’s pretty much common now for insurance companies to require both pilots to be 12 months “simulator” current. I contract a lot in the PC12 & the PC24 and this now seems to be the insurance standard, even for right seat in the PC12, at least from what I’m seeing. Insurance companies are getting very, very restrictive.

One of my other types is the Lear 60. It would not be my first, second or even third choice in a jet. Baggage capacity is very lacking for the seating capacity, the cabin size is ok, the engineer who designed the lav needs to be beaten with a bat and as mentioned the runway performance is poor and wet numbers are even worse. While it does climb like a love sick angel (I’ve done SL to FL410 in 11 minutes) cruise speed is not as fast as everyone thinks (.77 ish). The Astra SPX / G100 is faster .82 (another of my types). Also, the LR60 is a FL400/410 ft cruise altitude airplane. Been to 430 a few times for weather / ride and it burns more fuel there (small wing means thrust is holding you up there). If the thing had a good wing and larger wheels / brakes it would have been phenomenal…You would want the 60XR over the Classic as the Proline 21 is a good setup in the XR.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2022, 23:39 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
I have 4300 TT, 120 MM/jet, 1600 MU2, single pilot, Citation V.

I'm paying $11K on $900K hull, $1M/$100K liability. Going to $2M smooth, most they would write, would double the premium, so decided that wasn't worth it so went to minimal liability.

My prior policy, when I had 0 MM/jet, had $700K hull and $2M smooth, $17K, and I had to do 50 hours mentoring. The mentoring is a good idea and did that over about 4 months using the airplane on real missions.

Almost all single pilot owner flown jets that crash do so for pretty dumb reasons. I work hard not to be dumb.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Last edited on 13 Sep 2022, 08:45, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 00:14 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
One of my other types is the Lear 60.
the runway performance is poor and wet numbers are even worse.
cruise speed is not as fast as everyone thinks (.77 ish).

You are making me feel good about my Citation V.

Runway performance is phenomenal, rather close to my MU2 actually. I usually land not using brakes until the last 20 knots or so. It would be pretty easy to stop in 1500 ft ground roll, but I like my brakes and tires.

I won't get to FL410 as fast, but I will do mach 0.71 at FL400/410, and I've had it to FL430, FL450 where it work reasonably if not too heavy.

I'll take my nice docile straight wing, short runway usage, single pilot capability, and mach 0.71 speeds all day long over a Lear 60. 10% speed loss for a gain everywhere else.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 07:24 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12797
Post Likes: +5224
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
Username Protected wrote:
At what point does the experience line between owner and pro pilot blur? I train at same places and fly more than some ‘pro’ pilots. How does insurance make that judgement?


It’s not skill it’s incentive/judgment.

If completing the mission might help you pay the expenses of the plane, you aren’t a pro pilot.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 11:13 
Online


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 03/09/11
Posts: 1724
Post Likes: +784
Company: Wings Insurance
Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
Username Protected wrote:
What about someone like me? Owner flown pc24 - 2500hrs, 1200 of that twin turbines. Another 600 pressurized pistons. MU2 time should be considered jet time squared ;)

At what point does the experience line between owner and pro pilot blur? I train at same places and fly more than some ‘pro’ pilots. How does insurance make that judgement?


if you own the airplane and operate the airplane you aren't rated as a pro pilot - regardless of maybe being an ATP or having done 12 touch and go's in the space shuttle. That is just how insurance works and how underwriters rate policies.

_________________
Tom Hauge
Wings Insurance
National Sales Director
E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 12:10 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 09/17/12
Posts: 369
Post Likes: +93
Location: Addison, TX (ADS)
Aircraft: 1977 Bonanza V35B
Username Protected wrote:
Lear 60 is a great airplane. Goes fast, carries a load.

Most professional crews use 5000’ as a rule of thumb minimum runway. Shorter, get out the pencil. Small wheels and brake energy is often the first limitation.

Very sensitive to tire pressure- needs to be checked on a very regular basis.

Starter/Generators are weak spot. PW305 is the heaviest engine that uses electric start. Many Start/Gens don’t make it to TBO and when the fail they can disintegrate. Many operators change them on time (400hrs ? Don’t quote me) while they still have a repairable core.


5,000 feet is a good rule of thumb, even with the truck brakes (4 vs 3).

I asked one of our guys and we're getting about 500 GPU starts before needing to overhaul ours. Approximately ~$10k to overhaul them these days. So $20k for the pair / 500 starts = $40 per start. I think they can do more but, to your point, if you run them into the ground 1) you'll be AOG and 2) core becomes worthless.

The stab actuator has become hard(er) to find, at a reasonable price. The prices on them have gone absurd. Last one we bought was north of $80k and those need to be replaced every 600 hours.

I think all airplanes are having supply chain issues. The RTU (displays radio/nav frequencies) displays are backordered. We've got multiple out for repair but no screens in sight.

Some other random tidbits that are insanely expensive for no real reason is the fuel quantity indicator. That's close to 6 figures on the used market. To repair the backlighting on it was close to $100,000. Three little lights, feels like highway robbery.

All that to say they're a great 600 lbs/side plane at cruise (0.76 ISA FL410). Super quick to cruise and have a good dispatch rate so long as you maintain them. As with all planes, prices have gone insane. Beginning of COVID days they were low/mid $1M... now you're looking at mid/high $2s for them depending on condition.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 12:27 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 4006
Post Likes: +4410
Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Username Protected wrote:
One of my other types is the Lear 60.
the runway performance is poor and wet numbers are even worse.
cruise speed is not as fast as everyone thinks (.77 ish).

You are making me feel good about my Citation V.

Runway performance is phenomenal, rather close to my MU2 actually. I usually land not using brakes until the last 20 knots or so. It would be pretty easy to stop in 1500 ft ground roll, but I like my brakes and tires.

I won't get to FL410 as fast, but I will do mach 0.71 at FL400/410, and I've had it to FL430, FL450 where it work reasonably if not too heavy.

I'll take my nice docile straight wing, short runway usage, single pilot capability, and mach 0.71 speeds all day long over a Lear 60. 10% speed loss for a gain everywhere else.

Mike C.


Roughly how much higher are your operating costs per mile over the MU-2?
_________________
Be Nice


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 12:52 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Roughly how much higher are your operating costs per mile over the MU-2?

Too early for precise figures, but I estimate about 60% more per mile for Citation V versus MU-2.

The really great thing is that headwinds are less added cost since the cruise speed is higher. This makes the practical cost factor less in real life.

The major downer is that fuel costs went up, which hits harder on the Citation than the MU-2.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 14:17 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/03/10
Posts: 1562
Post Likes: +1781
Company: D&M Leasing Houston
Location: Katy, TX (KTME)
Aircraft: CitationV/C180
Username Protected wrote:
Roughly how much higher are your operating costs per mile over the MU-2?

Too early for precise figures, but I estimate about 60% more per mile for Citation V versus MU-2.

The really great thing is that headwinds are less added cost since the cruise speed is higher. This makes the practical cost factor less in real life.

The major downer is that fuel costs went up, which hits harder on the Citation than the MU-2.

Mike C.



that's putting it mildly.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 20:07 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12797
Post Likes: +5224
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
Username Protected wrote:
The stab actuator has become hard(er) to find, at a reasonable price. The prices on them have gone absurd. Last one we bought was north of $80k and those need to be replaced every 600 hours.
.


$133/hr reserve for one part !


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2 pilot jets per mile
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2022, 20:11 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/16/12
Posts: 77
Post Likes: +65
Location: KHEF & KCPS
Aircraft: C501SP
Username Protected wrote:
Playing devil's advocate, if you found a candidate that passed insurance requirements, you have to get them typed.


SIC's don't need a type rating. Yes, the FAA will give an SIC type rating, but this is for ICAO purposes and not REQUIRED domestically

https://nbaa.org/flight-department-admi ... onnel/sic/

Everything else, I agree. And I believe the insurance requirements are likely to kill any efforts to get a cheap copilot anyway.


Learned something new today!

Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 76 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.Marsh.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.AAI.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.