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28 Mar 2024, 06:34 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2022, 14:28 
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Love to know the headcount requirements to keep it operational. Last that I knew, each Predator needed a team of ~128.

As a cropduster, it needs the pilot, a loader/fueler/rig driver making $15/hour and the pilot's 14 year old kid. As a military asset, it will require 39 maintainers just to look after the tail wheel. :D


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2022, 21:55 
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How is the AF going to handle tailwheel training?


I think this is a excellent question.

What was the last USAF taildragger aircraft? A-1E, O-1, AC-47?

I learned to fly my friends Aeronca Chief and Champ at a local airport before I left active duty. Who in the USAF is tail wheel qualified today?

I get that the USAF pilots will receive training from the manufacturer or contractor facilitating the acquisition, but trusting a multi-million dollar aircraft to pilots with 0 tail wheel time will be interesting.

Of course, I’m just a mean old curmudgeon, they let kids fly those things today.

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2022, 22:06 
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What was the last USAF taildragger aircraft? A-1E, O-1, AC-47?


There's one still in service. Anyone care to guess what it is?
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I have no idea how they handle initial training for it. Some of its pilots have been quoted as saying that it's more than a handful to land and that mishaps are relatively common.

For the new Sky Cop, I suspect that new pilots will get their tailwheel training in the plane, and that the first group of instructors will get trained up at the factory.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2022, 22:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
What was the last USAF taildragger aircraft? A-1E, O-1, C-47


U-2 is a very squirrely taildragger.

Dunno if it is still part of the Test Pilot school curriculum, but it used to include a few hours in a TF-51 Mustang.

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Last edited on 09 Aug 2022, 01:23, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2022, 23:04 
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Anyone who thinks an average USAF UPT grad can't seamlessly transition to a tailwheel aircraft is kidding themselves. And they'll be able to do it by training in the aircraft itself, not some transition tailwheel trainer.


FWIW, USAf pilots have already not only flown the AT-802 (not only the USAF pilots involved in the selection process), they've trained foreign pilots to do the same. The link to one such example is in my reply on Pg 1 of this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 09:28 
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Brett, how much 802 time do you have?

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 12:22 
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It's gonna be just fine.


https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... ISR-ISR-AR


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 12:34 
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Stan,

I just read through the training document and has the EFI's name written all over it.

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 12:38 
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There have been some "interesting " events in some of the 802 transitions.

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 12:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
There have been some "interesting " events in some of the 892 transitions.


Are you referring to military, or civilian events? :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 16:23 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y8GR4FDu7g


I don’t think anyone is saying that current Air Force pilots can’t be trained to fly tail wheels, but I think some dual in a Super Cub (or reactivate some Stearman’s) would be a cheap way to get the pilots up to speed.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 17:50 
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That training document specifies an initial tailwheel endorsement by an FAA CFI in "non-turbine" aircraft with an empty weight between 800 and 1500 pounds and a max speed greater than 90 knots. That runs the gamut from a Super Cub/Citabria type of plane up to an Extra 300.

Then it recommends 10 hours in a heavier/faster plane, 1500-3000 lbs, faster than 125 knots.

The next stage is a heavier, turbine tailwheel plane. They actually state in writing that they recommend the 802, with AT-502 and Thrush S2RT as backups.

And then after that, they get 25 hours of training in the AT-802U using the sensor and weapons systems.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 21:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone who thinks an average USAF UPT grad can't seamlessly transition to a tailwheel aircraft is kidding themselves. And they'll be able to do it by training in the aircraft itself, not some transition tailwheel trainer.
.


USAF upt is cream of the crop. But I don’t think they’d seamlessly transition into boats or tanks or helicopters. Tail wheels are plenty learnable but they’re DIFFERENT. And high power prop ops are different. And the USAF has little (no?) tribal knowledge of either currently. Plenty of ww2 footage of ground loops and torque rolls too.

Will they master it eventually? Sure. Gonna be quick and simple? No.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 21:44 
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Anyone who thinks an average USAF UPT grad can't seamlessly transition to a tailwheel aircraft is kidding themselves. And they'll be able to do it by training in the aircraft itself, not some transition tailwheel trainer.
.


USAF upt is cream of the crop. But I don’t think they’d seamlessly transition into boats or tanks or helicopters. Tail wheels are plenty learnable but they’re DIFFERENT. And high power prop ops are different. And the USAF has little (no?) tribal knowledge of either currently. Plenty of ww2 footage of ground loops and torque rolls too.

Will they master it eventually? Sure. Gonna be quick and simple? No.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 22:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
And high power prop ops are different. And the USAF has little (no?) tribal knowledge of either currently.


Every USAF pilot flies a T-6 in phase 1 of UPT, so there's quite a bit of tribal knowledge of high power turboprops.

The training structure looks clear and thorough, and and USAF pilot is going to be a good student. I'm sure they'll transition with a minimum of problems.

I'm curious to know what pilots are going to be selected. Are they going to start a new branch at phase 2 of UPT?


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