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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2022, 23:22 
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“Then it recommends 10 hours in a heavier/faster plane, 1500-3000 lbs, faster than 125 knots.”

That’s the Gamebird! I’ve got over 15,000 hours, 1,300 hours of tail wheel time, it took more than 10 to land it safely, and lots more than that to land it well in various wind conditions.

Butch


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2022, 01:18 
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1. I'll be really surprised if the Secretary of the Air Force (Mr Kendall) allows this to happen. It does the square root of zero when it comes to his priorities for future conflicts.

2. UPT has cut the training program dramatically. A relative of mine just got Winged, and I'm extremely familiar with how the past year of UPT went down: 65 hours in the T-6 and 72 in the T-1. And it's getting reduced for the UPT 2.5 classes going through now: I believe UPT 2.5 is heading down the right path... but I'm skeptical that they are there yet.

3. Talking to the instructors that have just come out of the T-6 in the Training Command, it's about numbers, not about producing a quality graduate. The stories are highly disappointing.

4. Where are they going to find the pilots to go fly this? The AF is already 1,000+ fighter pilots short, and they probably will fill F-35 cockpits first. The majority of active duty pilots I know that are approaching the end of their 10 year commitment are leaving the USAF. The $35,000 "bonus" is a joke: it was $25,000 in 1992, which is $52,000 in 2022 dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2022, 08:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
And high power prop ops are different. And the USAF has little (no?) tribal knowledge of either currently.


Every USAF pilot flies a T-6 in phase 1 of UPT, so there's quite a bit of tribal knowledge of high power turboprops.


Trim aid device
A high-powered, single-engine turboprop aircraft normally requires extensive rudder control by the pilot. In order to reduce the need for rudder control on the T-6A, the Trim Aid Device was developed and patented by Raytheon Aircraft.

The device reduces the need for excessive rudder trim by balancing the trim requirements, using the aircraft’s pitch rate, air speed, altitude and engine setting to set the rudder trim tab position even in aerobatic manoeuvres.
—————-
I would disagree. The T6 was (appropriately) designed to fly like a jet. It doesn’t require nor instill the skills for high power prop ops.

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2022, 11:31 
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The Trim Aid Device takes a lot of the edge off of the power-right pedal relationship but not all of it. When you go from idle to max power on a touch and go then you do need to match it with a moderate amount of right rudder pedal- pedal displacement and physical effort... it's been a few years since I flew one and it's been ten years since I transitioned to the T-6 to instruct in it, but during my transition I remember being impressed by how much pedal was required but also how the plane flew (badly, but not dangerously so) just over the runway if you didn't use any pedal at all.

The only time I had a real torque roll was when we were stalled (AOA system was miscalibrated and we were practicing full stalls), and the ship quickly rolled over on its back- but this instance was partly a torque roll and partly a snap roll (student did not match the rudder with the engine spool up but did have a roll input to level the wings, and the down elevator on the left wing made kind of a perfect storm with the torque-yaw effect plus the torque roll effect plus the still stalled wing... good times!).

I also remember being very impressed by how much more pedal effort and yaw trim was required around the landing pattern when the Trim Aid Device wasn't working (normally a no-go item for student flights).

During aerobatics, especially a loop, the Trim Aid Device is fairly active. It's transparent, but after instructing for a long time I got to occasionally watching little details like that, or how the airplane worked during particular maneuvers.


I hope all that amplifies the stock description of the TAD's purpose and function. It doesn't do all of the work but it does most, and you very much notice it but its absence.

IMHO the T-6 turboprop is only slightly more rudder intensive than my Travel Air.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2022, 21:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
the plane flew (badly, but not dangerously so) just over the runway if you didn't use any pedal at all.


My guess is dangerous > bad is exactly what that device does. Plus it's a tricycle gear.

Learnable skills ... but they'll need to be learned. The community hasn't operated high power prop taildraggers for 50 years.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2022, 22:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
Brett, how much 802 time do you have?


Zero. You know how much that matters? Zero.

I’m more concerned with finding pilots that can manage a crew, manage multiple sensors, manage multiple assets in a flight, deconflict from other aircraft in the stack, handle multiple tactical frequencies, coordinate with the FAC/JTAC, build the ground and air picture in his/her head, manage detection concern, comply with ROE, employ ordnance in close proximity to friendly forces, operate in any AOR around the world, deal with wx in areas with little to no forecasting/reporting capabilities, etc. I’m pretty sure anyone who can satisfactorily meet those requirements can easily transition to a tail wheel airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2022, 23:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y8GR4FDu7g


I don’t think anyone is saying that current Air Force pilots can’t be trained to fly tail wheels, but I think some dual in a Super Cub (or reactivate some Stearman’s) would be a cheap way to get the pilots up to speed.


The video linked here is actually the Air Tractor test pilot, at the time, doing a military demo in California. There was a berm on the end of the runway. He touched down a few feet short and the tailwheel hit the berm first. Best I remember, they were doing gross weight demos off of short unimproved strips. He was either late with the power or there just wasn’t enough of it to recover. Once the nose is that high that close to the ground, options are very limited.

L3 has been training pilots around here for a good while now. The 802 is not a tailwheel trainer in any sense of the word. I have about 1500 hours or so in one and it’s a fairly docile taildragger, as long as you stay on top of it. If you get behind it, bad things happen quickly, as seen in the video.

I’m concerned about what this will mean for us in the ag world. Air Tractor has already been having trouble delivering quality airplanes on time for a couple of years now. Partially due to supply chain disruptions and partially due to turnover and quality control. The airplane I have now is a 2020 model and had to go back to the factory twice before I put 60 hours on it. Luckily, it’s only 40 miles away.

It’ll be interesting to watch it all unfold.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2022, 08:10 
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L3 is going to be making extensive mods. I expect that they will become QA if Air Tractor is delivering junk.

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2022, 10:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
L3 is going to be making extensive mods. I expect that they will become QA if Air Tractor is delivering junk.


Ohh, you can bet plenty of government inspectors will also be "helping" :peace:


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2022, 12:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Brett, how much 802 time do you have?


Zero. You know how much that matters? Zero.

I’m more concerned with finding pilots that can manage a crew, manage multiple sensors, manage multiple assets in a flight, deconflict from other aircraft in the stack, handle multiple tactical frequencies, coordinate with the FAC/JTAC, build the ground and air picture in his/her head, manage detection concern, comply with ROE, employ ordnance in close proximity to friendly forces, operate in any AOR around the world, deal with wx in areas with little to no forecasting/reporting capabilities, etc. I’m pretty sure anyone who can satisfactorily meet those requirements can easily transition to a tail wheel airplane.


Given that stan flies fires in an 802 he probably has some insight into complex operating environments.

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2022, 13:07 
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[/quote]

Given that stan flies fires in an 802 he probably has some insight into complex operating environments.[/quote]

Yeah, it would be great if he could give us some details of the transition incidents he alluded to. :peace:


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2022, 14:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
Given that stan flies fires in an 802 he probably has some insight into complex operating environments.


I'm sure he does. I'm not solving the problem of how to train USAF pilots in this airplane, that's for others. The insinuation was it'd be difficult to transition USAF pilots into this airplane. On avg, relative to all the pilots that transition into this airframe, I'm sure the median USAF guy will be at least avg or above. For those that missed it, not only have USAF pilots been flying this airframe for years, they've been instructors training Jordanian pilots to do the same.


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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2022, 14:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
Given that stan flies fires in an 802 he probably has some insight into complex operating environments.


I'm sure he does. I'm not solving the problem of how to train USAF pilots in this airplane, that's for others. The insinuation was it'd be difficult to transition USAF pilots into this airplane. On avg, relative to all the pilots that transition into this airframe, I'm sure the median USAF guy will be at least avg or above. For those that missed it, not only have USAF pilots been flying this airframe for years, they've been instructors training Jordanian pilots to do the same.


I don’t expect the United States Air Force will have any more trouble moving pilots into high-power taildraggers than the United States Army Air Corps did.

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2022, 14:57 
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They are going to be busy training those 87K new IRS employees :bugeye:

George

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 Post subject: Re: SOCOM chooses the AT-802 for armed overwatch
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2022, 15:14 
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Username Protected wrote:

I don’t expect the United States Air Force will have any more trouble moving pilots into high-power taildraggers than the United States Army Air Corps did.


One doesn't have to go that far back. As I said, plenty of 6th SOS pilots and Jordanian pilots flew it. Many of the evaluation pilots in the LFW selection process were USAF. Back in the '90's and early 00's, plenty of USAF pilots flew them in coordination with DoS in its counter-narcotics programs. We've been flying taildraggers for years, putting pilots into the aircraft with no particular difficulties, for several decades. And they came from all bbackgrounds to include tankers, C-130's, U-28's, fighters, etc. If you're being sarcastic, insinuating that the foundation that comes with 12 months of pilot training (vs how many in WWII?), 4 months of transition training, and 3+ years of operational flying actually employing the weapon system is somewhat insufficient and comparable to WWII, you're mistaken and obviously unaware that we've been in the taildragger business non-stop since the '90's and it's obviously been a non-issue since most have never heard a peep about them.

Like I said......my pilot selection criteria centers around the mission....the flying transition training will take care of itself in the normal way it always does.


Last edited on 12 Aug 2022, 22:09, edited 1 time in total.

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