18 Apr 2024, 22:31 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
|
Username Protected |
Message |
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 01 Aug 2022, 18:19 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8448 Post Likes: +8426 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
|
|
CK pointed out in the Biplane thread that I have old airplane sickness. It's true. I love old airplanes. I love old things in general like cars, buildings, and so on for their aesthetics as well as the romance of their history. But I love airplanes the most. When the subject of war birds comes up my mind goes to those built between 1914 and 1918 (though later craft are still beautiful, inspiring and, well, old).
As I go to fly ins, read posts in type clubs and talk to owners about older planes, and particularly older prewar biplanes like Wacos, Travel Airs, Great Lakes and so on I notice that almost all owners are advancing in age even more significantly than the typical GA pilot/owner and that there are even fewer "younger" owners than typical (an exception would be in the Stearman community where it seems like there are more "middle aged" owners than with owners of other types). Most of my biplane "friends" are in their 80's in fact with another large contingent in their 70's. Many, if not most, of these have been active in their type for decades.
It's sad, but clear, that a lot of knowledge is being, and going to be, lost in the near future.
I am also seeing a slow erosion in airplane values. Even the current inflationary trend in GA is not affecting this. One would hope that falling prices would attract younger owners but either those prospects don't exist at all, or prices haven't fallen far enough yet.
I'm curious what others are noticing if you have paid attention to this corner of GA. So far I see the older guys wanting prices for their planes that represent a time gone by and not likely to come back. I'd like to collect a few high quality examples of golden age aviation to preserve them for the future (and enjoy taking care of them for the present too) but think most are way over priced compared to where their values will be in ten to twenty years when it's my turn to stop flying.
What do you think?
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 01 Aug 2022, 19:54 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/09/17 Posts: 434 Post Likes: +587 Company: Cherokee Medical Clinic Location: East Tennessee
Aircraft: V35, others
|
|
In my 20s I was a WACO nut. We would drive to Mt. Vernon to attend the fly in every year. To say that the owners of the airplanes were unwelcoming to us youngsters would be an understatement. They had their club and it was most exclusive. Never mind that we were pilots, mechanics, and restorers of “lesser” airplanes. At the time we laughed among ourselves and drank beer and had a good time, while laughing that someday those snooty bastards would be gone and it would be us flying their old airplanes.
Now, 25 years later, they are reaping what they have sown. As you have found, these folks are dying off and they still think their equipment is worth a bundle. The market is indeed shrinking, and it will continue to do so. What a shame. But, for those of us with the interest and abilities, there will be some nice airplanes to be had. And these same folks are now calling me looking for help maintaining their old equipment. I just got a call recently about doing the annual on an F2.
FWIW, I had an RNF for a while, and now have a beautiful 220 Fleet that I restored. I intend to own a Cabin Waco at some point. There are two morals to my story: be nice to the younger generation, and shop for the already restored antique airplanes and cars. The costs to restore are much greater than buying one that is already done.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 01 Aug 2022, 20:02 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/05/11 Posts: 314 Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
|
|
How old does an airplane have to be to be considered an antique? What are the other considerations that are attributes of an antique?
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 01 Aug 2022, 20:16 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8448 Post Likes: +8426 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
|
|
Username Protected wrote: In my 20s I was a WACO nut. We would drive to Mt. Vernon to attend the fly in every year. To say that the owners of the airplanes were unwelcoming to us youngsters would be an understatement. They had their club and it was most exclusive. Never mind that we were pilots, mechanics, and restorers of “lesser” airplanes. At the time we laughed among ourselves and drank beer and had a good time, while laughing that someday those snooty bastards would be gone and it would be us flying their old airplanes.
Now, 25 years later, they are reaping what they have sown. As you have found, these folks are dying off and they still think their equipment is worth a bundle. The market is indeed shrinking, and it will continue to do so. What a shame. But, for those of us with the interest and abilities, there will be some nice airplanes to be had. And these same folks are now calling me looking for help maintaining their old equipment. I just got a call recently about doing the annual on an F2.
FWIW, I had an RNF for a while, and now have a beautiful 220 Fleet that I restored. I intend to own a Cabin Waco at some point. There are two morals to my story: be nice to the younger generation, and shop for the already restored antique airplanes and cars. The costs to restore are much greater than buying one that is already done. Tom, I've run into arseholes my whole life as I'll bet you have. It certainly isn't limited to a particular part of aviation. I've noticed that those who truly have a lot are generally not like that - it's those who just have more than most, and as a consequence think they're special. Your point is a great reminder to stay humble. I was at a fly in recently and I didn't meet any snooty people. Everyone I met was actually very friendly. But I did feel a bit of an outsider simply because I was new. That didn't bother me as I've been that my whole life. What I have noticed is that in this little corner of aviation I've met some really nice, warm, helpful and friendly people. They may be reaping what they've sown but my guess is that this part of aviation is just a victim of declining interest like the rest of GA. And their unrealistic (in my opinion anyway) view of their airplane's values is probably just the most depression they can stomach about the loss they must take if they sell. There was a guy here in OKC when I was in my 20's who IIRC flew 65 airplanes, all personally owned by him, on his 65th birthday. I'll never do that, not the least of the reasons is I'll be 65 in a few months and I only own 3 airplanes, but I love the idea. How much will values decline over the next 20 years? I want to calibrate my offers...
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 01 Aug 2022, 21:07 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 06/28/09 Posts: 14147 Post Likes: +9094 Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
|
|
Username Protected wrote: Most of my biplane "friends" are in their 80's in fact with another large contingent in their 70's. Many, if not most, of these have been active in their type for decades. This is kinda true for general aviation as a whole.
_________________ http://calipilot.com atp/cfii
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 01 Aug 2022, 21:20 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 07/22/14 Posts: 9249 Post Likes: +16538 Company: Mountain Airframe LLC Location: Mena, Arkansas
|
|
Username Protected wrote: In my 20s I was a WACO nut. We would drive to Mt. Vernon to attend the fly in every year. To say that the owners of the airplanes were unwelcoming to us youngsters would be an understatement. They had their club and it was most exclusive. Never mind that we were pilots, mechanics, and restorers of “lesser” airplanes. At the time we laughed among ourselves and drank beer and had a good time, while laughing that someday those snooty bastards would be gone and it would be us flying their old airplanes.
Now, 25 years later, they are reaping what they have sown. As you have found, these folks are dying off and they still think their equipment is worth a bundle. The market is indeed shrinking, and it will continue to do so. What a shame. But, for those of us with the interest and abilities, there will be some nice airplanes to be had. And these same folks are now calling me looking for help maintaining their old equipment. I just got a call recently about doing the annual on an F2.
FWIW, I had an RNF for a while, and now have a beautiful 220 Fleet that I restored. I intend to own a Cabin Waco at some point. There are two morals to my story: be nice to the younger generation, and shop for the already restored antique airplanes and cars. The costs to restore are much greater than buying one that is already done. Tom, When I was younger, I had a similar position. After I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned that the enamored lush and buoyant attitude those crusty old farts presented was just that, a presentation. They really want you to be interested. Don’t give up, and don’t take advantage of them either. I’m planning to become a crusty old fart within the next ten years. I am in great anticipation of the fun
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 01 Aug 2022, 21:29 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/28/17 Posts: 773 Post Likes: +369 Company: Bellanca Aircraft Location: Washington, OK
Aircraft: 17-30A
|
|
Redman's build more biplanes a year than most everyone else combined. They aint cheap either, but compared to a new carbon cub they are a bargain. That being said, there has never been a huge demand because of the costs required to restore one. Very few "young" people have the money, and even fewer have the skill to restore one. I quit worrying about the value of airplanes along time ago. If your worried about value or getting your money back out, old airplanes is not where you want to be. Like my buddy said, its like owning a vacuum tube store. Enjoy them, fly them, pass on the enthusiasm and maybe they will remain more than a roadside attraction during the rest of our lifetime.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 01 Aug 2022, 22:48 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 11/25/11 Posts: 9168 Post Likes: +17162 Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
|
|
Tony, Truth is, that at our points in life, our "investments" in airplanes are such a small % of our worth as to be irrelevant. Value is in the satisfaction we get from owning what we like. Still, I understand the perspective you present. We have spent our lives judging monetary value and resale. It is hard to break old habits. Jg
_________________ Waste no time with fools. They have nothing to lose.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 02 Aug 2022, 08:03 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 11/25/11 Posts: 9168 Post Likes: +17162 Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
|
|
Tom, I think you know that I'm not blind, naive, or arrogant. I understand, and appreciate, the sacrifices that many make in balancing their assets so they can afford an airplane. My position did not come easily or without sacrifice. There have been times in my adult life that I had to make significant sacrifices in aviation due to financial demands in other areas. I agree that the price of fuel can be the death knell. Even though other costs are sky rocketing, fuel bites you every time you pull up to the pump. Remember in a line from Christmas Vacation, "a gift that keeps on giving." The good news is that many older airplanes will run just fine on non-ethanol mogas. Both my 180 and 195 are quite content with it, as well as the Cub. IMO, as much as fuel prices, I see insurance becoming a larger issue. My age, at 73, is giving the insurance underwriters an excuse to raise my rates significantly. It does not help that I have a huge amount invested in both the 180 and 195 beyond the "typical" example. I have been saying "all of the above" for a long time. In a thread that I started, I said a couple of years before covid that I could see maintenance costs rising significantly. As has happened more than once with my posts, I was hung and garroted. I laugh when I recall a post I made about ADSB mandates probably 5 years ago that I received, what was then, a record number of dislikes. I now wear that badge proudly. Every single word I wrote has come true. Peace brother. Jg
_________________ Waste no time with fools. They have nothing to lose.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Antique Airplane Values Posted: 02 Aug 2022, 09:12 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6355 Post Likes: +5538 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
|
|
Username Protected wrote: How old does an airplane have to be to be considered an antique? What are the other considerations that are attributes of an antique? Normally, the definition of an antique is over 100 years old. Vintage is over 50 years old. So, rather few airplanes are true antiques, if we use the definition as they use it in furniture and design.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
|
|
Top |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
|
Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us
BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a
forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include
the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner,
Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.
BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.
Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024
|
|
|
|