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28 Mar 2024, 19:19 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2022, 14:57 
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Tony - Thanks for the analysis and battery information! Knowing that you are a battery nerd, do you see any of the new energy dense but physically lighter batteries coming to bear? ...and huge props on volunteering to offer that new pilot a ride to KOSH!


The eFan had a total of two (2) 30KW electric ducted fan engines plus a 6KW motoring battery for taxiing and up to 45kts for takeoff. I don't recall seeing the avionics load for an hour of taxiing and flight. They noted that it was capable of 45 minutes to 1 hour of flying using 120 4V LiPo cells.

Sorry; I could not find the amp hours so I am not sure what that translates to in KWH. Tony may know or help my search engine skills and point me to an article about the eFan's battery technology.

Questions for Tony or Mike C -
The energy density of dino juice is great but it's not environmentally friendly and generates a ton of heat and isn't really that efficient for generators, correct?

Would using a hydrogen fuel cell engine to generate electricity, and a hydrogen hydride (LiH and NaCl) for storage vice liquid hydrogen, be more environmentally friendly and efficient than what is now a gasoline-based mechanical engine and a gearbox being used to drive the ducted fans? At that point would it be possibly to direct drive the engine on each fan and eliminate the gearbox?

Granted, I do realize that depends on how the hydrogen was created/reformed.

Yes, I realize that the hydride might use Lithium 6, which is DoE regulated and export-controlled. United Nuclear found this out the hard way when they created their hydrogen powered 'Vette conversion but there was a recent article in JCPS (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jpcs.2017.11.027) that was of interest regarding this technology.

I enjoy reading about Tesla, Ford Mach-E, batteries and electric cars, hydrogen, SAF JET-A and even closed cycle JET-A made from atmospheric carbon recapture. Tesla made me a handful of retirement dollars but I am too tall for most of their sedans. Unfortunately I lack the time to really research but enjoy reading the electrical engineering Cliff notes from "Taco Tony" and Mike C and miss some of the others that have taken their time elsewhere. Thank you both for sharing!


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2022, 16:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
...The energy density of dino juice is great but it's not environmentally friendly and generates a ton of heat and isn't really that efficient for generators, correct?

Would using a hydrogen fuel cell engine to generate electricity...

Hi Bob,

something a lot of people don't consider about using this stuff in vehicles - the thermal efficiency of a fuel cell is not that much better than a piston internal combustion engine. But with the engine a huge part of the heat rejection goes out the exhaust stack. With the fuel cell that does not exist, all heat rejection goes into the water. And, the water operates at ~60C compared to the engine's cooling water at ~95-100C. The effect is that the higher water heat rejection of the fuel cell, combined with the smaller delta T between water and ambient air, means a comparatively enormous cooling system is needed for the fuel cell.

The other thing is that fuel cells don't replace batteries - they work in concert with batteries. So the overall installed mass for the vehicle is painful.

To put it in perspective we are playing with fuel cells in locomotives and large trucks and the weight is one of the primary factors making it impractical.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2022, 17:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
That's a really expensive way to plow corn


Ok that’s funny right there


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2022, 17:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tony - Thanks for the analysis and battery information! Knowing that you are a battery nerd, do you see any of the new energy dense but physically lighter batteries coming to bear? ...and huge props on volunteering to offer that new pilot a ride to KOSH!


With all these new pilots (and an ATC guy) watching, I better sit up straight and fly right! It’s going to be a great show.

I’ve been following this industry with interest, both personally and professionally, for a wee bit over ten years (it’s funny the direction life can take you sometimes). There has ALWAYS been the breathless news report about that breakthrough in battery technology, and frankly, I’m just numb to a lot of it.

I get invited to a lot of different events. For example, I just visited with a new battery technology company that promises the moon, like many of them do, and if they’re successful, I’m confident that they’ll be very wealthy. Stupid size wealth. Like Elon Musk. But, I don’t really see a major breakthrough of that proportion, to be honest. There’s a lot of work to be done, and guys and gals are out there doing the work. Let’s hope I’m wrong.

Batteries have never had a “Moore’s Law” trend line, but instead, there is slow but steady improvements. Maybe the single biggest improvement in my lifetime was simply lithium cells. We are still using them, many decades after their initial development.

The energy density of cells keeps going up… maybe by only single digit improvements per year, but time is our friend if we can keep on that path. I’m confident that we can, and that we will have a doubling of energy density (with cells that are compatible with vehicles) in the coming 10-20 years.

Just to put values on this; current automobile grade lithium cells offer about 250 wh/kg density, and we can move forward with that. But, folks will keep pushing advancements, so again, I’m hopeful that we reach 500 wh/kg in 5-15 years.

Anything over 500 wh/kg makes electric personal airplanes possible. Not the same as gasoline planes, that can fly 1000+ miles, but with dedicated new airframes, optimized for the increased weight of batteries, that operates at “pennies per mile” with near zero power train maintenance and 5000 - 10000 TBO. That should be a significant market disruption, just like Tesla was in 2012 with the Model S.

Quote:
Sorry; I could not find the amp hours so I am not sure what that translates to in KWH. Tony may know or help my search engine skills and point me to an article about the eFan's battery technology.


I’m not familiar enough with eFan to make many observations, other than I’m confident that the personal aviation market doesn’t really need such a plane. It’s a great demonstration.

Quote:
At that point would it be possibly to direct drive the engine on each fan and eliminate the gearbox?


Propellers can and have already been operated with a direct drive motor. It’s successful with axial flow motors.

Quote:
Unfortunately I lack the time to really research but enjoy reading the electrical engineering Cliff notes from "Taco Tony" and Mike C and miss some of the others that have taken their time elsewhere. Thank you both for sharing!


You’re welcome. I’m not a big fan of hydrogen for surface transportation vehicles, nor for light aircraft. Obviously, there are folks who love that stuff. My company accept a contract to work on a hydrogen car, whereby we did the electronics to connect the fuel cell electrical output to the batteries. Fun times.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2022, 17:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
That's a really expensive way to plow corn


Ok that’s funny right there


How many does it take to harvest an entire field? Maybe a whole new career for somebody. You could make a “small fortune”.
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2022, 19:09 
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Well, it looks like Combine #2 is coming!


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2022, 07:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
Well, it looks like Combine #2 is coming!

Does it? Almost a year and nary a peep.

I admit to a certain mild curiosity about Peter’s doings since the crash. It’s very possible he’s got a normal job that allows him weekend time to fly a Long-EZ.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2022, 10:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Been tried many different iterations, all flops

Not at all, some ducted fans have been HUGELY successful!
Attachment:
Citation-0002_3628.gif

Mike C.

Does either the airframe or engine OEM refer to it as a ducted fan? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2022, 13:47 
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That's a really expensive way to plow corn

It does not even make a good combine.

A childhood friend is in the custom combine business. He advises that a modern 1,200 AMU combine with a 50’ head is good for ~200 lbs/sec.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2022, 18:12 
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I'm confident that our hapless aviation pioneer will never be in danger from a crash in this proposed aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2022, 18:23 
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Although a crude RC test, this shows with abundant clarity just how much efficiency is lost in just about any configuration that isn't a big clean prop doing its thing.

Co-axial props? Lost efficiency.
Overlapping props? Lost efficiency.
Ducted prop? Lost efficiency.

[youtube]http://youtu.be/tFJyE3Uns3o[/youtube]

And as for that ducted fan placement on the wing like that - this guy needs to listen and learn from Mike Arnold and Hoehner:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/rxvoDbZpoY8[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2022, 12:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
Although a crude RC test, this shows with abundant clarity just how much efficiency is lost in just about any configuration that isn't a big clean prop doing its thing.

Co-axial props? Lost efficiency.
Overlapping props? Lost efficiency.
Ducted prop? Lost efficiency.

[youtube]http://youtu.be/tFJyE3Uns3o[/youtube]

And as for that ducted fan placement on the wing like that - this guy needs to listen and learn from Mike Arnold and Hoehner:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/rxvoDbZpoY8[/youtube]


Thats very cool, thanks for digging that up.
I wonder what it would be like to have a geared setup with big fat blades spinning much faster. Accelerating a smaller amount of air to a much higher speed more like a jet.

I was envisioning a C/S gear ducted fan spinning very fast.

But now we are in the domain of the unconventional and complex which never pan out.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2022, 16:03 
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Adam - Speaking of RC tests, the design reminds me of one of the flying lawnmowers.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/NPrv28SmRis[/youtube]


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2022, 20:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Well yes, right but... WRT to piston engines.
Is there any juice in that squeeze?

Oddly, just today:

"A380 superjumbo to test experimental open fan engine"

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/airb ... index.html

Attachment:
a380-unducted-fan.png


This has been researched before, the GE UDF:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_GE36

Canceled in 1989.

So perhaps jets are becoming more like props? What exactly is the difference between "turboprop" and "open fan jet"?

The other aspect of this story is that A380s must be salvage value if buying one for a test bed makes sense.

Mike C.


Pretty sure Photoshop is even cheaper than an old A380.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor NG - Hybrid-Electric Ducted Fan Twin
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2023, 18:04 
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He’s ba-ack…

https://youtu.be/5-ya-W2M2lA

Spoilers: Going to be a VTOL! Only 80 gal of fuel can take you from California to Hawaii! Going to weigh less but be even bigger than Raptor 1! No more pressurization - simple oxygen concentrator and good seals will get it done!

:liar:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Last edited on 04 Mar 2023, 18:18, edited 1 time in total.

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