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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2022, 16:34 
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With those big flaps dropped down low, 60 degrees?, it reminds me of my Birddog but with side-by-side seats instead of tandem. Oh, and it's faster, stalls slower, burns less fuel and probably carries more. I think it will be another big winner for Vans.


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2022, 23:10 
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I should have mentioned something rather obvious...

Those who have lived through the evolution of Van's most recent design, the RV14, speculate that it will be three years until the last of the kit parts become available. That's a bit of a wait. Contrast this wait time with the Glasair Sportsman that has kits available virtually immediately. While it's great that Vans is doing the RV15, for those who have a lesser supply of patience, going with the tried-and-true Glasair Sportsman might gain a significant time advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2022, 14:02 
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I bought a set of plans for a Bearhawk Patrol that I was converting into cad. I stopped working on this when the RV-15 first came up. The appeal of the BH was that you could actually get somewhere in it vs a supercub. The downside was that it was a puzzle. Even if you buy a "quick build" there are a lot of items you need to sort out.

The appeal of the RV-15 is that it will be the exact opposite of a puzzle. I'm betting it will be worth the wait.


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 18:17 
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Have you noticed ho the fuselage skins seem to be deformed so you can see all the underlying structure? Looks almost like fabric. The skins must be very thin. Seems odd for a plane that will see rugged use.
Just look at the still on the video on first post in this thread.
Older planes show this with age and lots of use.
Vans knows what they are doing, so maybe more the way light reflected off the sides.

Also the Number. 3+5+7=15. And one extra digit


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 18:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
Have you noticed ho the fuselage skins seem to be deformed so you can see all the underlying structure? Looks almost like fabric. The skins must be very thin.


Not sure what you're referring to. Here is a hi-res image, I'm not seeing any deformation.


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 19:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Dream KPPs:

150kts cruise.
800lb with reasonable fuel.
Mogas compatible.
Cabin sized for two average Americans, not dieting Ethiopians.
Operate comfortably from 700ft surface.
Ultra-Maximum Idiot Proof quick build kit.

:dancing:


LYCOMING OPERATION REFEFRENCE MANUAL
IO-390 SERIES SPECIFICATIONS
SECTION 2
SPECIFICATIONS
IO-390 Series
Standard rated horsepower.................210*
Rated speed, RPM.............................2700*
Bore, inches......................................5.319
Stroke, inches...................................4.375
Displacement, cubic inches..................389
Compression ratio ........................... 8.9:1*
Firing order .................................. 1-3-2-4
Spark occurs, degrees BTC..................... 20*
Valve (hydraulic tappets collapsed) ..028-.080
Propeller drive ratio ................................ 1-1
Propeller drive rotation (viewed from rear) .. Clockwise*

FUEL AND OIL
*Aviation Grade Fuel
Model Series Minimum Grade
IO-390 100/100LL


NOTE
Aviation grade 100LL fuels in which the lead content is limited to 2 c.c. per gal. are
approved for continuous use in the above listed engines.

The importance of using fuel specified for a specific model Lycoming engine has always been stressed in Lycoming service publications. The chart showing the minimum grade fuels that can be safely used in no instance permits use of fuels of lower grade than that which is specified. Also, it is not permissible in any instance to use automotive fuel in aircraft engines, regardless of octane or advertised features because of the corrosive effect of its chlorine content and because of vapor lock that could result due to its high vapor pressure. Any fuel used in Lycoming engines must conform with Specifications ASTM-D910 or MIL-G5572F.

NOTE
Isopropyl alcohol in amounts not to exceed 1% per volume may be added to the fuel to
prevent ice formation in fuel lines and tanks. Although approved for use in Lycoming
engines, isopropyl alcohol should not be used in the aircraft fuel systems unless
recommended by the aircraft manufacturer.

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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 19:47 
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Adam, look at the video, the first post in this tread. Look at it before starting the video
Your pic looks much better


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 20:40 
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Adam, look at the video, the first post in this tread. Look at it before starting the video
Your pic looks much better


I see what you mean. On the side I think that's the horizontal stab reflecting in the aluminum, along the top edge maybe the wing reflecting. I'd guess it's Vans standard 0.016 alum skins.

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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2022, 23:17 
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Keep in mind, this is the engineering test prototype, not a production flight test example. They are just now proving the concept - final production will follow with lots of changes.

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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2022, 12:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Keep in mind, this is the engineering test prototype, not a production flight test example. They are just now proving the concept - final production will follow with lots of changes.


One can expect this aircraft was put together with more than a little focus on getting it built rather than making it beautiful. That having been said, the first video showing the aircraft in flight shows, in the chase plane view, more than a little oil canning happening in the empennage.

For those in the Glastar/Sportsman community, the Vans products are often referred to as flying beer cans. The Glastar/Sportsman feels much more solid in every respect. How well the RV15 will withstand the rigors of back-country aviation will be interesting to see as flight experience increases. It will be years before we'll know the answer to this question.


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2022, 13:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
For those in the Glastar/Sportsman community, the Vans products are often referred to as flying beer cans. The Glastar/Sportsman feels much more solid in every respect. How well the RV15 will withstand the rigors of back-country aviation will be interesting to see as flight experience increases. It will be years before we'll know the answer to this question.


I’m sure that there are a lot of us who aren’t familiar with the Glastar. It appears to be a mature program, and kits are available:

https://glasairaviation.com/sportsman-k ... ble-again/

Plus, they ship from the same general area as the Vans products, in the Pacific Northwest of the USA.


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2022, 14:46 
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Adam you are right. That plane is so shiny it is picking up reflections from horizontal stabilizer and other areas. The photo you posted looks better but stilll picks up reflections.
However no way would those skins be .016 on fuselage. I think .025 and or .032 on the sides.
.016 is very thin and easy to damage. They use to use .016 on elevator and other control skins back in late 80’s and 90’s and some builders moved up to next thicker size. Not sure what they use now on control skins.


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2022, 22:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
Keep in mind, this is the engineering test prototype, not a production flight test example. They are just now proving the concept - final production will follow with lots of changes.


One can expect this aircraft was put together with more than a little focus on getting it built rather than making it beautiful. That having been said, the first video showing the aircraft in flight shows, in the chase plane view, more than a little oil canning happening in the empennage.

For those in the Glastar/Sportsman community, the Vans products are often referred to as flying beer cans. The Glastar/Sportsman feels much more solid in every respect. How well the RV15 will withstand the rigors of back-country aviation will be interesting to see as flight experience increases. It will be years before we'll know the answer to this question.


Seriously?

Cessnas, also "flying beer cans", have a long and distinguished track record flying the backcountry. Van's has more EAB aircraft flying than any other builder (11,104 as of today per Van's website), has been around 50 years, and many of these aircraft have thousands of hours. Many fly routinely out of unimproved strips and in the back country. Like any properly designed airplane, a well-maintained and constructed Van's airplane will last a very long time.

Regarding "oilcanning" you may find this article of interest:

https://theaviationist.com/2019/11/20/l ... -wrinkles/

Found on another forum:

"...I'm a mechanic for a major airline. Recently in one of the hangars at our facility we have been doing gear changes on 747's. The entire airplane is put on jacks and the gear is removed. With the nose gear gone the aircraft is a bit tail heavy and in the afternoon when the sun shines in at a low angle you would not believe how it looks, you'd think it was made of tin foil with major oil canning all along the aft section of the fuselage. You can actually see a few large wrinkles in the structure..."

"Oil canning" is more of a cosmetic than a structural concern - it's an attribute of the metal and it's considered in the design of the aircraft. I co-owned a 40+ year old Archer and every time I flew it the top of the wing skins bowed up between ribs - the RV-14A I built looked pretty much the same:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2022, 21:42 
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Quote:
I co-owned a 40+ year old Archer and every time I flew it the top of the wing skins bowed up between ribs - the RV-14A I built looked pretty much the same:


Exactly my point. The Sportsman wing doesn't look like that in flight.

Unfortunately I've had some involvement with RVs which were operated from non-paved strips and I got to see the labor which went into repairing the gear attachment points as a result of the non-paved field operations. Vans talks about total performance. "Off field operations" on a regular basis and on fields which are rough isn't one of the factors baked into the design of Vans models prior to the RV15. Seeing the suspension on both mains and tail wheel tells us Vans has slanted the RV15 design toward improved off-field durability.


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 Post subject: Re: RV-15
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2022, 22:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
I co-owned a 40+ year old Archer and every time I flew it the top of the wing skins bowed up between ribs - the RV-14A I built looked pretty much the same:


Exactly my point. The Sportsman wing doesn't look like that in flight.

Unfortunately I've had some involvement with RVs which were operated from non-paved strips and I got to see the labor which went into repairing the gear attachment points as a result of the non-paved field operations. Vans talks about total performance. "Off field operations" on a regular basis and on fields which are rough isn't one of the factors baked into the design of Vans models prior to the RV15. Seeing the suspension on both mains and tail wheel tells us Vans has slanted the RV15 design toward improved off-field durability.




Well of course the Sportsman wing doesn't look like that in flight - it's composite construction - nor does it look like the wing of a fabric-covered aircraft, nor do any of these observations have any bearing whatsoever on the durability of any of the various designs. It would be interesting to see some data, or evidence of design flaws regarding the gear leg issues you describe, since that's a much more valuable discussion area.

Van's tri-gear designs prior to the RV-10/14 were a bit wimpy in the nosegear but I'm less aware of main gear issues (and tailwheels predominate in the unimproved strip opearations). I follow the discussions about various maintenance issues on VAF quite avidly and honestly there's not a lot of talk about main gear issues - whether your experience reflects the fleet experience is open for debate....

You've kind of sidestepped the real point of my post, and of course I agree that Van's hasn't focused (up til now) on designs intended for backcountry operations but the (perhaps unintended) point of your post appeared to be perceived superiority among the "Sportsman community" - and yourself as a member of that community - of one manufacturer/design type over another. (Perhaps it was the pejorative "flying beer can" that tipped off the bias), as well as the implication that "oil canning" is evidence of inferior design/construction - which is provably untrue as I pointed out.


Last edited on 16 Jul 2022, 23:05, edited 3 times in total.

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