24 Apr 2024, 07:07 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing Posted: 03 Jul 2022, 16:41 |
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Joined: 04/30/09 Posts: 1517 Post Likes: +859
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Username Protected wrote: I just finished this 501 "restoration" and delivered it to a friend on Friday. This is a 2,800 ft strip at 4,400 ft elevation. 2 adults, 1 child, about 2300lbs of fuel on board. Awesome machines! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paqigkGDd54What’s Vref on that approach? How about wind? Reversers?
_________________ Former Taco Chef Now - Battery Salesman No Engineering Skills I don’t know what I don’t know
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing Posted: 03 Jul 2022, 16:50 |
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Joined: 06/06/12 Posts: 2290 Post Likes: +2114 Company: FlightRepublic Location: Bee Cave, TX
Aircraft: DA40, C182
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Username Protected wrote: What airport is that? Looks really cool - I want to go there. It looks like MountainAire in North Carolina? I've never been, but I've always wanted to!
_________________ Antoni Deighton contactlink.to/antoni.deighton
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing Posted: 03 Jul 2022, 16:54 |
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Joined: 01/28/13 Posts: 6053 Post Likes: +4019 Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
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Beautiful and well done to Michael, plane and landing. Unless I’m mistaken the Rwy has a nice incline helping to shorten a well flown approach/landing. MT has laid the gauntlet down let’s see which jet drivers take up the challenge, safely, and compete with this one. I do remember a TBM driver with a short Rwy in TX that also owned a Cessna Mustang. Looked tight in his Mustang. Mustang of course a very different animal in many ways from MT’s 501. Gotta be Apples vs Apples…
_________________ Chuck KEVV
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing Posted: 03 Jul 2022, 17:27 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: What’s Vref on that approach? It sure looked like he was under Vref, pretty high AOA. Check out the nosewheel height above ground at touchdown. A camera angle at runway level would make this even more clear how nose high this was. Attachment: 501-2nc0-touchdown.png At 10,000 lbs landing weight, which should be close based on the data given, Vref is 102 KIAS. Book landing distance is 2400 ft, so quite doable. TCH (threshold crossing height) of about 18 feet also helps a lot. Book distances are based on 50 ft which eats about 1000 ft of runway you don't use. This looks like he touched down 250 ft from runway end. Uphill helps, too. Got to be careful on drop off runways, though. Wind blowing over the end can cause sink right at the end leading to mushy plop. A question will be takeoff. At 10,000 lbs, book distances are about 3500 ft, which is beyond runway length. Dropping 500 lbs (1 person, child, some taxi fuel), you are still in the 3150 ft range. It has to get colder and/or windier to make it out within book specs. Any wetness on the runway would make it a no go, landing or takeoff. Keeping a 501 at this airport is marginal. It will take top notch piloting, careful analysis, and there will be lots of days you simply can't go. There is no room for error. Quote: Reversers? Deployed as shown in the video. Have to reduce to idle reverse thrust at 60 KIAS, so that limits what they can do. Still helps to have them deployed to reduce residual idle thrust, though. Mike C.
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_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing Posted: 03 Jul 2022, 18:02 |
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Joined: 11/15/17 Posts: 687 Post Likes: +350 Company: Cessna (retired)
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Don't want to land short there!
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing Posted: 03 Jul 2022, 18:09 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: MT has laid the gauntlet down let’s see which jet drivers take up the challenge, safely, and compete with this one. I'm in not going to attempt this, but just using book numbers for my V that maximize weight for the runway length give the following results. Conditions: 25C, 2900 ft runway, 4500 ft MSL elevation, no wind. Landing weight: 13,150 lbs (3900 lbs useful load), Vref 99 KIAS The book gives no credit for uphill landing on runway 32, uses 50 ft TCH, and no use of TRs. Thus you can beat these numbers by a huge amount. Takeoff weight: 12,500 lbs (3250 lbs useful load), V1 85 KIAS, Vr 92 KIAS The book gives no credit for downhill takeoff on runway 14, assumes engine failure at V1, and has runway end crossing height of 35 ft. Thus you can beat these numbers handily as well. If you use the gradient the "wrong" way, landing 14 or takeoff 32, then the book penalties are severe and unworkable. You need the wind to cooperate. With a 500 lbs cabin load (2 adults, 1 child, say), and wanting to get back out again, I'd have 2750 lbs fuel. This would allow me about the same range as the 501 with 2300 lbs fuel. The V is an amazing short field airplane. The improved wing goes slower and it goes faster than the prior models. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing Posted: 03 Jul 2022, 18:52 |
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Joined: 02/10/21 Posts: 485 Post Likes: +227 Location: KBMG - Central Indiana
Aircraft: Baron 58
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Like Mike C said, TRs don’t come into play in the numbers. They do help operationally. The Citation 501 series have some awesome brakes. Nail Vref and you can make the book numbers all day long.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing Posted: 03 Jul 2022, 21:36 |
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Joined: 04/30/09 Posts: 1517 Post Likes: +859
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Username Protected wrote: Looks like it belongs on the low approach at oshkosh Vref was 99… how exactly would that work? But, at least there would be more room for all the heavy Bonanzas on the 135 knot route.
_________________ Former Taco Chef Now - Battery Salesman No Engineering Skills I don’t know what I don’t know
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