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28 Mar 2024, 17:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2022, 14:44 
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I grant you it was poor form not to deploy the boards, but how are you determining the touchdown speed was too high?

Low attitude at touchdown. The goal is to be at 0.6 AOA or higher at touchdown. That attitude wasn't near those numbers.

Also, he was in power reverse for a *long* time. You got to idle reverse at 60 KIAS, which for me, is a quite short time.

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Maybe he used little to no brakes.

I suspect he was using the brakes quite heavily.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2022, 10:45 
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Thrust reversers make a HUGE difference on Citations. HUGE! They also cost practically nothing to maintain.

Whatever they cost to maintain saves more than that for tires and brakes.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 09:56 
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Another 501 landing at Mountain Air. Runway looks about the size of a postage stamp.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/jLDhGdjL2gI[/youtube]

And here he is taking off (fast forward to 6:25). Doesn't look like he's accelerating too well down the runway, though that could be an illusion. May or may not have dropped a bit off the end. :bugeye:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/1Hq9k9Bl5lA[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 10:17 
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2900 ft runway, 4432 ft elevation, on a warm day, they probably did not meet takeoff runway distance. That distance assumes engine failure at V1 and crossing end of the runway at 35 ft AGL, so there's margin in the numbers, but one has to be careful when nibbling at those edges.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 10:45 
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2900 ft runway, 4432 ft elevation, on a warm day, they probably did not meet takeoff runway distance. That distance assumes engine failure at V1 and crossing end of the runway at 35 ft AGL, so there's margin in the numbers, but one has to be careful when nibbling at those edges.

Mike C.

Even considering runway slope?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 10:53 
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Even considering runway slope?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 10:54 
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Even considering runway slope?

No correction for negative gradient? That doesn't make sense.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 10:58 
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No correction for negative gradient? That doesn't make sense.

V1 is lowered for a negative runway gradient. So basically your go/no-go decision is sooner. Mike T, however, considers V1 to be at brake release for this runway! For me, once I hit about 50kts, I'm going (off the end if necessary)!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 11:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Another 501 landing at Mountain Air. Runway looks about the size of a postage stamp.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/jLDhGdjL2gI[/youtube]

And here he is taking off (fast forward to 6:25). Doesn't look like he's accelerating too well down the runway, though that could be an illusion. May or may not have dropped a bit off the end. :bugeye:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/1Hq9k9Bl5lA[/youtube]


That looks like a pretty aggressive push over in the left turn on departure. He may have gotten a bit slow but reacted quickly. Scary.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 14:54 
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No correction for negative gradient? That doesn't make sense.

The AFM is not physics, it is regulation.

Anything that shortens your takeoff isn't taken at full value. Negative gradient provides no distance benefit. Headwind takeoffs only get a fraction of the wind counted. Tailwind takeoffs assume the tailwind is larger than specified.

Markings are built into the number by regulation and testing procedures.

The MU2 AFM takeoff distances are basically unusable since they are so far from the truth no one follows them. In some cases, the "penalty" is so blatant as to be clearly done artificially. Carlson's Solitaire at KSQL probably has never been operated conforming to the AFM runway numbers, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 15:00 
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No correction for negative gradient? That doesn't make sense.

Anything that shortens your takeoff isn't taken at full value. Negative gradient provides no distance benefit.

Yet positive gradient lengthens the distance 10% for every 1% incline? I suspect that is overly conservative and not based on physics too...
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 15:13 
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For a negative gradient, I suspect whatever shortening of the takeoff roll is provided by the downward slope, it is offset enough by the increased stopping distance in the event of an abort that Cessna decided to call it a wash and therefore makes no correction (decrease) to takeoff distance.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2022, 20:23 
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 09:39 
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2900 ft runway, 4432 ft elevation, on a warm day, they probably did not meet takeoff runway distance. That distance assumes engine failure at V1 and crossing end of the runway at 35 ft AGL, so there's margin in the numbers, but one has to be careful when nibbling at those edges.

Mike C.

I don't think it was that hot. The nearest airport, Asheville (KAVL, more than 2,000 feet lower) didn't exceed 27 degrees C max during the entire Labor Day 2009 weekend. I doubt he took off at the hottest part of the day and therefore I don't think he was much over 20 degrees C if at all. So he was probably pretty close to takeoff runway distance assuming he was 10,000 pounds or less.

But it's always possible they forgot about some gold bars stashed in the baggage compartment.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501 Short Field Landing
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 22:38 
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Even considering runway slope?

No correction for negative gradient? That doesn't make sense.


No correction even though this was 14 years ago?
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